by jwfacts 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Why is there different names for the 12 tribes that make up literal Israel and the 144,000?
Just speculation, but consider that Revelation is just a compilation from different authors. Perhaps whomever wrote the passage that includes the 12 tribes in Revelation got the names wrong.
My belief is that the 144k are martyrs where as the great crowd are the people that escape the GT and live forever never knowing death. I don't agree with the WTBTS with their insane dogma , I think it went something like-- The "anointed" are raptured at the time of their death so they don't know what death is . That is soooooo not what the bible says. Rev 7 says it's the great crowd . I also don't agree that women are included with the 144k .Despite the fact some have died as martyrs. Rev. 14:4 says they don't defile themselves with women , I believe that is saying they make themselves eunichs and abandon any hope of having children and being devided with worldly persuits to provide for them .
Hello,
It seems Russell got his information from the bible itself. It seems that Ancient Israel was the key component in identifying what would take place in the future.
We all know that Israel had a priesthood that was separate from the people. Also we know that the original priesthood was established by God who chose the High Priest and the under priest who were separate from the whole nation.
Revelations state that the priest would number only 144,000 and would be taken from the earth to rule as priest and kings. The other sheep the great crowd of followers will remain on earth under subjection to God's rule.
When Abraham obeyed God's voice to sacrifice Isaac, that episode only symbolized what God was going to do in the future. He sacrificed his only begotten son for us. So in closing, by observing ancient Israel we will find other information and details that foreshadowed the future things to come.
Undecided,
Some of Russell's ideas are obviously supported by the Bible, but he got very few of his doctrines directly from it. His religion was basically a cut and paste of other religions, most commonly the Adventist movement. So my question was to do with which group or preacher did he plagurise the 144,000 teaching from.
Russell had a complex theological system which he formed from various sources, but he did not always credit his source.
There are two potential sources for his view of the 144,000:
One is Henry Dunn. Russell was familiar with Dunn - he mentions him in the supplement to the first issue of the Watch Tower as a forerunner. Dunn's restitution views were spread by George Storrs and Jacob Blain, both active among the Adventists. Dunn tried to reconcile seemingly contradictory scriptures: that there are many that are saved, and that there are few that are saved. This is how Dunn answered this question : the many saved are the World in a future probation, and the few saved were the Church selected now to in the future reign over and serve the World. So Dunn taught two salvations. Quoting Dunn : the election of the few are for the benefit of the many . (Russell took this view over and made it a central part of his doctrinal system).
Dunn also wrote of a "secondary spiritual class", who failed to make their calling and election sure, and yet were saved eternally. Dunn viewed election as meaning not eternal salvation but election to the highest rank in the kingdom - kings and priests. Dunn noted that there were parables of reward, and distinctions of rank. Russell named the elite class "The Little Flock" and this secondary spiritual class "The Great Company".
Another source of Russell's view was the minority opinion of the "partial rapture" theory - that the saints are raptured in groups, the first group is more faithful, and the next group less faithful. This "partial rapture" theory was held by Joseph Seiss, the most prominent American Lutheran minister of the time, who was editor of a prophetic journal called The Prophetic Times. The writers in this journal often speculated on how many raptures would take place, and what order. G. N. H. Peters, also a Lutheran minister, and contributor to the Prophetic Times, and a friend of Russell, also held to the partial rapture theory, and wrote a 3 volume work "The Theocratic Kingdom". The view that there would be two raptures is based on Rev. 7: the 144,000, and the Great Multitude, or "Great Company". Russell called the 144,000 the Little Flock, and considered it a literal number. Also, the parable of the wise virgins (Little Flock), and foolish virgins (great company).
He considered both to be spiritual classes. However, he also believed there would be an earthly class after the Great Company, made up of those who consecrated after the door to the high calling, spiritual calling, was closed, similar to the earthly class of the Ancient Worthies of the Old Testament. However, Rutherford considered the "Great Crowd" to be an earthly class. I wonder if Rutherford merged the "Great Crowd" class and the "Modern Worthies" class or confused them.
Getting back to Russell's view of the Little Flock: he expected the rapture of the Little Flock in 1881. This did not occur. He then changed his view of the rapture, and taught that all the Little Flock would die. He next expected the change ( how this was to happen was not clear) to occur by 1914. This also did not occur on schedule. He then interpreted the story of Elijah and Elisha as a picture of the separation of the Little Flock and Great Company. Elijah was the Little Flock and Elisha the Great Company. The taking of Elijah to heaven was interpreted as a type of the rapture ( as in Russell's book with Barbour called the Three Worlds) , but Russell had modified the theory of rapture. After Russell's death, the Bible Students splintered into various groups. Instead of the Great Company being revealed by the supernatural event of the rapture, some thought it to be revealed by which Bible student group you were in. (Timothy White's book has a good explanation of the Elijah and Elisha views.) Ones were condemned as being of the Elijah class, Great Company, and lower and lesser than others. (This was an unfortunate consequence of Russell's confusion on this matter).
My own opinion about this:
Dunn's views were stated tentatively, as inferences, and explained in detail his reasons and basis for his views. Russell took them over and stated them dogmatically, and did not always give his reasons, but assumed it to be true. The theory of the two salvations of Dunn and Russell has merit and is likely the most attractive aspect of Russell's system. It is possible that there are indeed distinctions of rank in the kingdom of God, known by and rewarded by God. However, this is a different matter than a division among Christians in this life. But Russell believed that the endtimes had already started,and that division was imminent. This division of Christians into higher and lower classes has not borne good fruit. It has led away from charity and unity, toward spiritual pride, legalism, judgmentalism, and spiritual abuse, and confusion over one's class. It would be better to view all Christians as equals, and leave the judgment up to God.
Steve
There are many groups who believe the 144,000 represent the Church. I hasbe dozens of commentaries not related to the JW's or Adventist who believe and taight the144,000 is the church. Same believe the number is symbolic, but nonetheless, it represents the church.
Keep in mind Russell's view of the 144,000 could not be antisemetic, since he was a Christian Zionist!
RR
Seiss's book The Last Times is on Google Books, and Seiss gives his views on the rapture, which aren't the same as Russell's, Seiss had 3 groups to be raptured.
Another source could have been Nelson Barbour, who wrote the Three Worlds, which Russell supported financially.
Although others have interpreted the 144,000 to be the Church, or their sect, Russell's view was different because he believed it to be a literal number of the Church, not just at the end times, but throughout the Gospel Age. He did not believe the 144,000 to be the same group as the Great Multitude, as some teach, but a different group. The number 144,000 is a small number for Christians throughout the centuries, but he held that this was only the highest class, and that most Christians would fall in the Great Multitude class.
Dunn concluded from the Bible that few would be saved, and yet many would still live eternally, and Dunn harmonized this by his theory of two salvations the Church/World, and then also the Little Flock/Great Multitude among Christians.
Russell could have accepted this thought from Dunn/Storrs, and then interpreted the partial (meaning that the Church is raptured in parts, and not all at once) rapture theory taught by Seiss and others in light of this, and came up with his own unique interpretation of the 144,000/Great Multitude of Rev. 7.
Russell does not give many sources for his beliefs - Wendell, Storrs, Stetson, Barbour, who were all connected with the Adventist groups. He quotes Seiss and Dunn as teaching certain truths prior to Barbour. They were not Adventists.
But why do we really have to think that God cares about squared numbers etc... 12*12000
Really is he that concerend about numbers? As if only exactly 144000 jews or humans in general deserve to be in heaven. Is it a first come first serve basis so that the guy who was 134,723 was not as much of a christian as some guy who is like 174,839 in the line of christians who is more spiritually in touch with god - but since he was born later it doesn't matter?
What are the real qualifications anyway? It seems like its all just a man made thought process if it is suppose to be a literal number. I just have no clue why God would work this way. What is more - why exactly will perfect people on earth need to be ruled over by 144001 others. Why isn't Jesus enough? It seems like this was like the opening of John said "Signs and symbols" as opposed to trying to pick out the few literal numbers that match your own desires.
The passage even mentions 12,000 from each of the various tribes... so EXACTLY 12,000. Is God really that concerned with that level of precision with HUMAN NUMBERS?
Were the numbers from God..? Really, all this theology kept scribes scribbling and priests in power. And who in the rank and file could keep up with it?
Jesus told easy to remember stories---but no math problems.
