LT are you honestly telling me that the only reason you think I'm asking questions about authority in the RC church is as a sly aside to smugly suggest that the LDS got it when they lost it so ya boo sucks? I'm not here arguing for LDS authority! Anyway - I'm sure that you've read enough LDS history to know the answer to your last post so I will maintain my position and focus upon the RC claim alone.
I don't think you need to be any particular religion or claim any special authority to see that the heart of the RC question is all about apostolic succession (and the authority it would entail) and nothing else. If the RC church cannot convincingly argue it, then they are not correct and what they do when they administer the sacraments is absolutely wrong (have a look at what they claim to do.) On the other hand if they are right and they do have authority then it is we as non-catholics that are found lacking as their claims regarding the sacraments are so wide reaching that we must go to them for the truth and teh administration of those sacraments - I can't see any grey with regards the RC.
LL - I'm aware of the appeal of your comments but I see no evidence of it scripturally or practically from those who wrote the words you interpret thus. You seem to embrace the notion of spiritual selection but reject the form of organisation as necessary upon little more than the fact you don't think it should be.
What does Jesus think? It's his body/church/family after all? Is He expecting to return to a kingdom or a combine?
Debaters: Let's have It Out !
by Amazing 124 Replies latest jw friends
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Qcmbr
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lovelylil
Q,
Let me make this short. Can you answer this 3 Questions for me now, since I have answered lots of yours? (also my eyes and hands are getting tired)
Are you saying that unless ALL of Christ's believers are located in ONE religious institution or organization, he will not know who they are, and thus cannot gather them together upon his arrival?
Are you claiming that Christ or the Apostles gave ONE organization or denomination on earth the SOLE authority over all believers? If this is a yes, I would like YOU to supply me with scriptural proof of this from the New Testament.
Are you trying to say that the Christian Church (Ekklesia) is not the members of Christ's body as a collective group, but is a one physical, organizational structure? If so, please provide the NT proof of this claim also.
When you answer my questions, I will answer the rest of yours. Peace, Lilly
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LittleToe
Q:
Your own sensitivities are getting in the way of you understanding my point. I'm not for one moment suggesting that you are promoting your own faith by cutting down the RC position. I'm just suggesting that you are cutting down a branch that is similar to your own. Since your own faith claims a similar basis for authority, what is to stop someone cutting the branch that you sit on, just as you are doing to the RC?Using the same tokens that you use as teeth on the saw that you attack the RC branch with, what do you see as the strengths of your own faith over this that permit you to defend one but assail the other? I ask this because the alternative is to be speaking from a position of rank hypocrasy, which to my understanding was the only crime for which Jesus accused anybody.
Additionally, on whose authority did Philip go to the Ethiopian Eunuch, and from whence came the Coptic church?
Jeremiah:I still say that this is supposed to be a discussion. Why don't you start with the point that you find particularly strong...
Nana:
I would contend that its far simpler than that. The Holy Spirit teaches us that which we need to know at any given time. The main point isn't so much that every jot and tittle or belief is correct but that we are eventually transformed into an image of Christ from the inside out. -
Qcmbr
Ok LL
1/ Yes all believers should be in one organisation - they should be in Christ's church. Ephesians 4:5 Matthew 12:25
2/ I believe the sole authority of God is the Priesthood - the Priesthood is a sole organisation. Hebrews 5:1-4
3/ The recognition of the authority necessitates the taking of sacraments by authority. Matt 3:13-15 John 3:5 Galations 1:8
LT
LDS claim a restoration of apostolic authority for the very reason that it is vital and had been lost. Acts 3:21, Revelation 14:6 -
AllAlongTheWatchtower
1) Well, having never been Catholic, I may have some wrong ideas, but as far as I know, the first actual pope was Siricius in 380-ish AD. If the pope is supposed to be an unbroken continuation from the time of Christ, I never understood why 300 some odd years went by before somebody became the first to use the title of pope.
2) Papal infallibility. Before I became atheist and still actually believed the bible, I had a problem with the Catholic faith and the doctrine of papal infallibility; the bible says no man is perfect but Jesus, how then can the pope also be perfect? (And historical, secular evidence exists that quite a few of them were very un-perfect indeed.)
3) Confession. I never quite could accept that simply doing a few hail marys or our fathers could absolve one of any wrongdoing. True story, I used to know a woman that was having an affair with a married man, she was Catholic and had been told she had to break off this affair. She was reluctant to do so however, and to avoid guilt/lectures/whatever, would travel around to different churches each week to make her confession, gradually making a circuit so as to only see each priest once in a blue moon. That way she never had to confess to the same priest twice in succession that she was still having the affair. I found it all kind of amusing and ridiculous, but to her way of thinking, she was sinless becauses she continued to go to confession each week. I often wondered if these priests didn't get together once in a while and share info, if they ever did, she'd have been so busted, lol.
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*jeremiah*
I understand LT,
Well, you guys have on done a fine job discussing what is and what isn't "the church". I don't feel like reiterating what I agree with.
On another tangent tho,...one point that Amazing made in his opening post definitely caught my eye:
I personally wish and hope that the ecumenical efforts to unite the whole Church into one will someday be accomplished. However, I hope for compromises as I believe they all have erred, and they all have some correct points. Whether I am right or wrong is another matter ... this is all very subjective anyway.
In my opinion,...I think this will definitely happen. Unfortunately, I don't think that this will be directed by God. Not only do I think that many christian sects will eventually unite but many religions will unite to form a one world religion. This will be the religion of the Antichrist.
You can see these things taking shape in the news. Heck,...just watch the pope. One recent article's title was "Pope's Prayer in Mosque is a New Horizon in Interfaith".
There are a myriad of interfaith organizations who are gaining more and more ground everyday,...the following are just a few:
The UN's sister organization, the United Religions Initiative http://www.uri.org/
The World Interfaith Congress http://interfaithcongress.org/home.cfm
The World Council of Churches http://www.wcc-coe.org/
The Parliament of the World's Religions http://www.cpwr.org/2004parliament/
I'm at work and thus commentary has to stay short,....plus it's time to go home. later
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LittleToe
Q:Is the Christian's home here or with our Lord? Given that the OT was a shadow of that to come, is the temple physical or spiritual? Is our High Priest mortal or immortal? "Here we have no continuing city..." (Heb.13:14). Thus is the crux of the Protestant argument.
This doesn't negate the need to congregate orderly and acknowledge that some have the subordinate gift to "rule" but, to those who have room for it, the "kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36) it is "within" (Luke 17:21). Perhaps in more of a JamesThomas way than most can accept.
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lovelylil
Q,
Thanks for those scriptures. But I must tell you this, you have pulled every single one of them completely out of context to try to prove the LDS is the true church. Much in the same way JW's do with scriptures to prove their authority. Lets take them one at a time:
Hebrews 5: the whole point of this chapter is that Christ has been apointed as our (the church's) High Priest for ALL TIME. And no other priest is needed. Please read the entire chapter and not only one verse. There is no mention here of re-establishing a human priesthood. Hebrews chapter 7 shows that Jesus is the high priest in the order of Melchizadek and not aaron. Why? Because the Aaronic Priesthood was imperfect but the Melchizadek Priesthood was perfect. Yes, Christ is our perfect High Priest in the heavens, so no earthly priest is ever needed again. Hebrews 7:17 declares Jesus is our Priest forever. Hebrews chapter 8 continues on that Jesus is the High Priest of the New Covenant. The convenant all Christians are in.
Nowhere in any of these chapters of Hebrews does it say that God has established a new earthly priesthood for the Church. Christ is THE High Priest for all Christians. No others are needed to make sacrifices on our behalf.
Chapter 9 of Hebrews explains that unlike the old human priesthood that had to offer up sacrifices for God's people continually, Christ as our Holy High Priest has made ONE offering for our sins thru his blood. Chapter 10 reiterates this fact. Again, no other human priesthood is needed nor will come to be. The old ways, were done away with by Christ.
Most groups claiming full authority over Christians try to enslave them under the old OT ways again. The LDS is trying to re-establish its own human priesthood. But all those chapters of Hebrews goes totally contrary to that.
Sacrements?
Matthew 13 is talking about Christ's baptism. John 3:5, is stating we (Christians) must be born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I agree with this but do not understand what you are talking about sacrements? All true believers are "born again" by the Holy Spirit of God. You can be born again and be in any church denomination. Again, the church of God are all the believers, not dependant on one organization or denomination. You are not born again by any works dictated to you by your religion. You are born again by the Spirit dwelling in you.
Galatians 1:8 , Glad you are the one who brought this up. Here is what it says, very important point;
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Wasn't it the Angel Moroni, who preached a new gospel recorded in the book of Mormon? Hmmm, you may want to rethink that gospel in light of the above verse.
Last but not least, the final texts you gave say nothing at all about restoring "apostolic" authority. I guess the LDS also claims they were needed to restore truth on earth because for 1900 or so years, the whole church went into Apostacy? Well, then either they are lying or Christ is lying because he said he will send the Holy Spirit which will teach his church up until he arrives. He sent it at Pentecost and all believers recieve the spirit today too. To say the church went into total darkness is saying the Holy Spirit is powerless.
Peace, Lilly
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Amazing
There are so many good posts that I don't know where to begin. But, I will make one more reply to Lil, and then pick out some others:
Btw: The Catholic Church is an "organism" not an organization.
Lovelylil,
What I meant by invisible church is that being in the church does not mean you have to be "in" a church building. The spirit is in all true believers and we are "the church".
I understood your meaning ... and I agree with you. Catholics in general would agree with you. The faith has never been about a Church building or an organization ... it is an organizism ... always has been, and always will be.
I agree that the Apostles, as well as the prophets built a foundation for the Christian church. But they built it, upon the rock mass of Jesus Christ himself and not on any one of the Apostles.
This is a point of disagreement. I have returned to accepting that when Jesus called Peter the rock, and the context of the comments he made, that he was conferring power upon St. Peter. But, I disagree with the Church that this meant the Pope would be infallible.
I have no problem with Apostolic tradition and teachings. And the majority of Christian churches will also be in agreement with this, whether they are Catholic, Protestant, or even the little house church I attend, which is also based upon the teachings of the Apostles. But we are to be loyal to Christ first, and we should not treat the Apostles as if they are above him. By the RC Church for instance claiming they are built on Peter - this would be exalting Peter above Christ. The church which is the body of believers everywhere is built upon the Rock Mass of Christ and the foundation of the prophets and Apostles.
I fail to see how Jesus making St. Peter the rock places St. Peter above himself. Of course nothing is above Jesus, he is God the Son. But, for example, when he counseled the seven Churches in Asia Minor, he did not go directly to them individually or to their Priests (Pastors), he went to the Apostle John. The Apostles were in a key role, and their appointed successors continued that role. Maybe this ended with Luther, when the Protestants came along so that they could revise how Jesus was running his Church for 1500 years.
I think the main problem I have is that the Church Systems try to say who is/is not in the body of Christ. They will say you are only in the body if you belong to their church system. And this is not the way the Christian church is supposed to operate. All believers are all "in Christ" and are Christians, we do not need to be divided into different denominations. The denominations also set up their own traditions and doctrines unique to them that were not directly handed down by the Apostles. That is why it is important to check all things to God's word to see if it is true. However, I am not telling anyone not to belong to a particular denomination only that it is not neccesary to belong to Christ's church. Where two or three are gathered in his name, he is with them and they are a Church.
The Catholic Church never tries to say who is or is not in the Body of Chrust ... at least not in my experience or studies. I generally agree with your paragraph.
The church has been growing since Pentecost and I agree with you Christ promised to always be with them thru the Holy Spirit. I reject the JW's and Bible Students claim that the entire Church went into an Apostacy for 1900 years and there were no true Christians on the earth. Like you said very well and used scriptures, the wheat and weeds (true and false Christians) grow up together, (in the body of Christ) until the Angels are sent to seperate them out during the Harvest. The problem with the cults is they claim the harvest has already been done and they are the only true Christians left. Like you said the wheat and weeds grow up in the SAME place, which is the body of Christ. Then the tares or weeds are removed from among the true wheat. This point you made is significant because the cults have it reversed. They are claiming they are the wheat and were removed from the weeds of false religion. However, it is the weeds that are removed from the wheat - the reverse, and the wheat are left standing. (great point, Jim)
Thanks ... and maybe we can build on this point ... that is ... maybe better ecumenism between all Christian denominations, better acceptance, and better cooperation. There is enough good to work with that it can be done ... and the good news, the RCC is negotiating with the Orthodox, the Orthodox are negotiating with the World Council of Churches, and many other bodies are enjoying Interfaith activities.
One more thing about Jesus words that we need to worship "in spirit and truth" and Paul saying "God does not dwell in man made temples", If you look at the context of both those verses, the point is that the "place" of worship does not matter. As a believer in Christ and having the spirit in me, I am in the living Church and I can feel free to worship in a house church, a Catholic one, a Protestant one, etc. and it does not matter. As long as I am worshiping in spirit and truth. The place is not the most important thing. Granted, most Christians do not elevate the Church building or system above Christ and recongnize that the Church is really the believers.
Correct, church buildings are not the dwelling, but it is within the believer. My thought is that when believers do gather under a denomination and in church building, Christ is still there ... the church building does not chase him away either. The RCC has some additional aspects to this, but they are not really relevant to the topic.
I think we really agree on more than we disagree on.
Agree.
Jim Whitney
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LittleToe
Jeremiah:
It looks to me like the next tussle could be the battle for the pre-eminent multi-faith groupYou make an interesting point, hence I ask:
Jim:In your opinion, how do you identify the anti-christ?
I think we really agree on more than we disagree on.
I also agree on this point. Luther managed to strain out 95 points of contention that he felt needed reforming, but that is set against a backdrop of hundreds of points of agreement. The mainstream denominations have at least 95% agreement, and on the most important topics, to my mind.
The usual arguments concern abuse of power and nitpicking details of the sacrement of the Eucharist and baptism. Of all of these the Eucharist is probably the most contentious.
Would you like to tackle transubstantiation (which to most people is merely a very long string of letters)?