How did Jesus suffer?

by onacruse 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  onacruse

  In jambon1's thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/128929/1.ashx I suggested the possibility that Jesus was not required by Scripture, nor necessarily described in Scripture, as "suffering" in the physical sense of bodily pain.

  I specifically had in mind Hebrews 2:18: "...he himself has suffered..." The Greek word used here is pascho, which has a general meaning of "to be affected by a thing, whether good or bad." Thus, in the compound form sympatheo (whence the English 'sympathy'), the sense is "compassion, fellow-feeling." This word is subsequently used in regard to Jesus in Hebrews 4:15: "...not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses..." Again, the word "weaknesses" (Greek astheneia) means simply "without strength," and does not necessarily include the thought of physical pain.

  In Isaiah 53:4 it is said that "He...is pained for us..." (LXX), and the Greek word is odunao, meaning "pain of body or mind; sorrow, grief," and is also used in a 'positive' sense in the Scriptures (positive in the sense that physical pain is not necessarily included as an aspect of the experience).

  This is an admittedly a limited initial examination, but if the postulate holds, then it would present a somewhat different perspective about Jesus than I previously held.

  Craig
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  LittleToe

  I simply don't see how anyone could avoid feeling pain when nails are hammered through their hands. It's has to at least pinch a bit. I'm really not sure where this hypothesis would lead. Where is the advantage in believing that Jesus could have experienced what he did without pain being involved?

  Psalms 22 and 69 are often quoted in Christian circles, too.
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  Qcmbr

  This is the LDS take on it - the atonement was literal suffering for the sins of the world and the cruxifiction was also fully experienced as you or I would feel it.
  
  (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 19:16 - 19)
  16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
  17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
  18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
  19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
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  Crumpet

  I think that really morally Jesus couldn;t have used a magic spell to avoid the pain. I remember asking my dad about this. Also didn't Jesus refuse the sponge in myrhh which might have alleviated the pain so he could be seen to experience it fully.

  Nevertheless I think dying because his egomaniac dad could only balance out human sin that way would have made me have ole daddy committed somewhere he couldn;t do human beings anymore harm.
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  Narkissos

  This was a hot debate in early Christianity too, one important Gnostic segment insisting that the spiritual Christ did not suffer but only appeared to (docetism), to fool the spiritual rulers (archontes) of the world as to his true nature (cf. 1 Corinthians 2:8). This is already visible in the Passion according to John, which is much less of a "Passion" than the Synoptics -- but even in the latter, particularly Mark, one can wonder who really suffers. At several points in the narratives we can read hints that the divine escapes from the man Jesus' fate (cf. the "young man" who escapes naked when Jesus is arrested, to be found again in the empty tomb; the liberation of Jesus bar-Abbas, "son of the Father," instead of Jesus the Nazarene; the cry of the forsaken Jesus on the cross; the giving of the spirit).

  To an extent the same question (who suffers) is reflected in later Trinitarian and Chalcedonian theology, with the hypostatic union of an impassible "God the Son" to a passible human nature...
• 

  onacruse

  LT:

  I simply don't see how anyone could avoid feeling pain when nails are hammered through their hands. It's has to at least pinch a bit.

  And yet there have been numerous documented cases of people (though rare) who have found some "way" to even have root canals done without the benefit of anesthesia...they just "put their minds elsewhere." Certainly the Son of God could do the same?

  I'm really not sure where this hypothesis would lead.

  Well, as one possibility: Christians are to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, and if they understand that Jesus actually physically suffered in the cause of righteousness, then they too must not only expect, but accept, such physical suffering (hence my recent thread about "Christians are masochists"...no disrespect intended).

  Where is the advantage in believing that Jesus could have experienced what he did without pain being involved?

  Now that's a good question, and begs me to ask in return: What is the advantage? What does your belief that Jesus suffered physically do for you, as a Christian, that you couldn't do otherwise?
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  LittleToe

  Craig:

  Now that's a good question, and begs me to ask in return: What is the advantage? What does your belief that Jesus suffered physically do for you, as a Christian, that you couldn't do otherwise?

  I have nothing invested in it either way, so I return the question...
• 

  onacruse

  LT:

  I have nothing invested in it either way, so I return the question...

  Fair enough. My answer then would be:

  1) That Jesus might have suffered physically, when he could have avoided such suffering and still fulfilled the Scriptures (insofar as a propitiating sacrifice is concerned), qualifies him as a nut-case.

  2) That Jesus might not have suffered physically proves that he was not the all-suffering Christ that he is typically presented as being (at least, I think most mainstream Christian religions would assert that he must so be).

  And then there are the existential issues to which narkissos alludes: the very nature and being of Christ. Why would the creator of man need to personally experience human life in order to know how the human organism would behave and feel? And if Christ's "sympathy" with all humankind was the point to be proven, then he left out a big part: being married, having children, etc.

  Crumpet:

  Also didn't Jesus refuse the sponge in myrhh which might have alleviated the pain so he could be seen to experience it fully.

  Perhaps he refused it because he didn't need it?
• 

  RAF
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  RAF

  Either you believe or you don't
  If you believe you have no reason to think that he didn't suffer (why being scared as a God then?) then why even imply that he would refuse anything because to fake anything? PFFFFFFFFFFFF
  
  If you don't believe the subject is OVER.
  
  There was a time when belivers where bullshiting unbelievers, and there is a time for the unbelievers to bullshiting the believers (here we are) ... but it doesn't change what happen (in what anyones believe for himself)