How did Jesus suffer? (page 2)

onacruse

RAF, this question occured to me just today, in the course of the other thread that I mentioned in the first post. And, after all, I did believe in Jesus for the vast majority of my adult life, and I wouldn't even propose a question like this if it didn't still have some potential meaning to me.

Your dismissive attitude is, quite frankly, disappointing. If you have nothing better to say than "believe, or PFFFFFF," then please understand if I don't bother to respond to any more of your posts.

Craig

RAF

Your dismissive attitude is, quite frankly, disappointing. If you have nothing better to say than "believe, or PFFFFFF," then please understand if I don't bother to respond to any more of your posts.

To me it is not dismissive it is an answer ... my answer is not "believe or PFFFFF" out of contexte of course it looks dismissive. And maybe that's why it doesn't allow people to focus on the answer for what it means.

My answer is an answer about the fact that the topic would only lead to : "you believe what you believe" ... there is no way to know anything in particular about the subject historically, we can only state things from the bible (as believers) on this particular theme. And in the bible it is said that he did suffer ... nowhere it is written that he faked the pain.

restrangled

I recently watched a program about this on the history channel.

They have discovered that nails in the feet were not used. The Romans put nails through the ankles with a small piece of wood used as a brace. The ankles were nailed to either side of the post. The feet and hands would actually have torn from a post if shown as the Jw's believed.

As horrible as it is, they tested with corpses.....The ankle bones were strong enough to support the entire weight of the body and hold it there.

A major nerve runs through the ankle and this form of torture was much more excrutiating than the hands. They recently have recovered bones with these nails still through the ankles. It also allowed the body to lift up and relieve the pressure on the lungs and heart making it a terrible death. It also further substantiated a cross beam being used, testing men carrying a stake to support their weight. None were able to do so, but could carry a cross beam.

If the Christ was born from human flesh, certainly he would have had the same physical feelings as humans. Also wasn't there a scripture just before he was captured where he asks god "if at all possible to take this cup from me."?

Anyway, extremely interesting and informative. They concluded the cross was actually a T.

r.

Edited to add: Wasn't there another scripture that said he cried out as the nails were driven in?

onacruse

RAF, thank you (and I apologize for any misunderstanding), and so then let's focus on what you suggest:

And in the bible it is said that he did suffer ... nowhere it is written that he faked the pain.

What I'm suggesting/exploring here is that "suffering," as the Biblical terms are used, does not mean that he experienced physical pain. I've presented three different Greek words along that line, with lexical definitions. Perhaps you have some other evidence to the contrary?

Insofar as that he "faked the pain," I didn't suggest that possibility. I implied that he didn't (perhaps) even feel the pain. It was the Docetists who suggested otherwise (as nark posted), and they're a bit before my time. However, it's interesting that this issue was such a theological debate for the early Christians. Perhaps a bit more to it than might appear on the surface?

onacruse

restrangled, I wouldn't for one second suggest that, for an ordinary human being, going through a crucifixion would be anything less than one of the most physically painful and torturous experiences imaginable.

However (and please correct me if I exaggerate), I have seen many explanations of why Christ did what he did, and said what he said, as being deliberately, and perhaps only, to fulfill Biblical prophecy. If so, then, even his cry of "My God, my God..." could be taken as nothing more than that.

But again, this would be mere speculation on my part. I'm looking at what the Bible actually says (what the words mean, or don't mean). If someone could point to a particular NT or OT word that clearly and only means "suffered in the physical sense," then that would be the answer to my question.

RAF

Onacruse (sorry) .... oy oy oy, I guess I didn't understood the "real" question again
Ok by then, I would say that if I really want to think about the question I can't even imagine that he wouldn't have experienced physical pain ... to me it is a part of the sacrifice ... (as to say : I went there too for you to know I'm not only ruling I taking my full responsability).

To me if they discussed the matter even way before is because as human, any who would have the chance to escape the pain would ... so of course God could ... but then part of the sacrifice about suffering in every way like human for human would be just not really what it is supposed to be.

Also (to me) the fact that they describe the whole scene ... implies that it was important to notice that it was painfull.

greendawn

If we take the Biblical account he did suffer since he had a bitter cup before him that he would rather not drink, his agony in the garden of Gethsemane was obvious. Certainly not the picture of one that was going to have an easy trial. It was the gnostics who denied that Christ had truly suffered claiming that it was all a delusion. The Apostle John was refering to them when he was saying that some antichrists were denying the Lord that purchased them from sin. Christians were in turn to share in that suffering in order to also share in the glory of Christ.

Narkissos

Craig,

Perhaps one answer to your question (in addition to the obvious, i.e. that "physical" is the default, literal meaning of "suffering" unless a derived,figurative or metaphorical meaning is contextually implied) lies in the NT texts which explicitly parallel Jesus' sufferings with the Christians' sufferings. There are many of them in Paul (especially 2 Corinthians; Romans; Philippians) and the post-Pauline (Colossians), Acts and Hebrews. Perhaps the highest concentration is found in 1 Peter, where physical clues abound:

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps.
"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth."
When he was abused, he did not return abuse; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, free from sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. -- 2:17ff.

For it is better to suffer for doing good, if suffering should be God's will, than to suffer for doing evil. For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. -- 3:17f.

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same intention (for whoever has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin), so as to live for the rest of your earthly life no longer by human desires but by the will of God. -- 4:1f.

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that is taking place among you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you are sharing Christ's sufferings, so that you may also be glad and shout for joy when his glory is revealed. If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the spirit of glory, which is the Spirit of God, is resting on you. But let none of you sufferas a murderer, a thief, a criminal, or even as a mischief maker. Yet if any of you suffers as a Christian, do not consider it a disgrace, but glorify God because you bear this name. -- 4:12ff.

Edited to add the famous Oscar Wilde quote: "God, spare me physical pain; I can cope with moral suffering!"

onacruse

Edited to add the famous Oscar Wilde quote: "God, spare me physical pain; I can cope with moral suffering!"

LOL.

Thanks for that series of passages from 1 Peter. It will take me a bit to work through it...tomorrow, eh?

Best regards to all.

How did Jesus suffer?

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