Revived beast sick of Unipolar Babylon the Great

by proplog2 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Jeremiah:

    You do understand that I don't believe in God and that I don't look at the Bible as the product of a omnicsient being. So my approach is different. But I'm glad to see you are flexible in your approach.

    I see the Bible as a "minimal intervention" in human evolution. Its purpose is to assure that there will be a model for humans as they face their ultimate test - the transition from competition based culture to a cooperative culture.

    It all comes down to the need to form a borderless nation (group) that can sustain themselves through the transition and serve as an example and as a model for the new direction the world needs to head. In Matthew 24 there is the command to get out of Jerusalem when her destruction seems near. In Revelation God's People are told to flee Babylon the Great before she is burned with fire. Everything depends on their being a special group that will be responsive to the command to flee.

    The command is made to "stay awake" "Luke 21:34-36 "But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. Keep awake then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur and in standing before the Son of Man."

    The purpose of the Prophetic books is to hold human attention over a long period of time. The prophetic books needed to be embedded in a collection of religious-historical writings so that they would be copied and preserved. Every generation is going to see some things that match. But the match will not be perfect until it has to. And the most important or signal event is the one that requires action - to flee.

    So I start out with the assumption that because we are living in a period of time when we can destroy ouselves that this IS the time of the end. Next I look for the "real" events and "actors" that match the Biblical pattern at its final stage. So, I think it is an error to think that you can proceed forward from past history and get it right. I believe all that history was just to keep people interested enough to preserve those writings.

    This is how I arrive at my interpretation. Revelation, Matthew, Daniel all speak about the final tribulation. Revelation speaks about the destruction of Babylon the Great by means of the Wild Beast - followed by divine intervention at armageddon. Daniel describes the destruction of the King of the South by the King of the North. Now lets fill in some details. Daniel 11:40 describes the King of the South as pushing, aggravating the King of the North. The King of the South appears to be the instigator just short of actual attack. The King of the North attacks the King of the South and from that point on appears to be the dominant power when Michael stands up.

    Today we do have a Great Northern Empire that has been in conflict with The Greatest Richest Empire - Ever. Russia vs. the USA. This is right now - today.

    Alexis de Tocqueville wrote in Vol. 1 of Democracy in America (published in 1835):

    There are, at the present time, two great nations in the world which seem to tend towards the same end, although they started from different points: I allude to the Russians and the Americans. Both of them have grown up unnoticed; and whilst the attention of mankind was directed elsewhere, they have suddenly assumed a most prominent place amongst the nations; and the world learned their existence and their greatness at almost the same time...Their starting-point is different, and their courses are not the same; yet each of them seems to be marked out by the will of Heaven to sway the destinies of half the globe.

    Now who is pushing who? Clearly the USA has been pushing Russia. It remains for Russia to attack the USA.

    Revelation describes Babylon the Great as having a Kingdom over the Kings of the Earth. It is "filthy rich" and it sits on or attempts to ride the wild beast. The USA is the richest nation on earth. All those with ships at sea have become rich due to her shameless luxury. Go to Davos and see the Americans strut. "her traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth".

    Further identifying the Wild Beast. Seven heads and ten horns. Five have fallen - likely Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece. One is - Rome. Another which after it arrives remains a short time. The inheritor of power on the Eurasian World Island was Russia. Moscow brags that it is the "third Rome". The seventh head appears slaughtered. Although it doesn't specifiy the seventh head - but since its revival is considered an eighth head it is the best candidate. The USSR died in Dec 1991. This can't be said of any other modern empire. There is no longer a space on the earth occupied by the USSR. A close view is given in Rev 13:11 of the resurrected beast. It appears lamb-like but then begins speaking like the dragon.

    Russia under Yeltsin was docile as a lamb. It looked like it was on its way to being a nice democracy. It even got accepted into the Sacred circle of the G-7 nations making it the G-8. It is now once again showing its iron teeth and claws. It is expressing its resentment toward the interference of the OSCE, NATO and the USA in its old territories that formed the CIS. These Nations are often called the newly formed nations. They are rich in natural resourses - Oil and Gas. Some of these (Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia) are flirting with the Great Prostitute but others are very cautious. Those newly formed nations with strong dictators realize that their best chances lie with Russia and not the Democratic West that would install their own patsies to power.

    The 10 kings that cast their lots with the Wild Beast and express hatred toward the harlot are described as having "not yet received a kingdom".

    1. Armenia 2. Azerbaijan 3. Belarus 4. Georgia 5. Kazakhstan 6. Kyrgystan 7. Moldova 8. Tajikistan 9. Ukraine 10.Uzbekistan 11. Turkmenistan

    Ooops there are eleven. More than likely Belarus will become part of Russia. They have signed a lot of documents preliminary to forming a union.

    Russia also fits the description of the final empire on the dream image in Daniel Chapter 2... Russia's long standing problem is that it is such a conglomerate of National Groups. It isn't a melting pot. It is made up of 89 nationalities each with their own language. It is always in some stage of falling apart. It remains together because it is willing to use its Iron grip like it has in Chechnya.

    There is a lot more to this. It requires some knowledge of Geo-Politics. Too many show their ignorance by worrying about Moslems, Chinese etc. Moslems are practically pharisees with their concern for ethics and are more likely to kill each other than outsiders. The Chinese are an advanced civilization with a full plate- no one else could manage such a large population. The Russians remain a serious problem because they are extremely aggressive, opportunistic and exploitative.

  • *jeremiah*
    *jeremiah*
    You do understand that I don't believe in God and that I don't look at the Bible as the product of a omnicsient being. So my approach is different.

    No,...sorry, I guess I over looked that.

    Wow,...very interesting approach. I really don't know where to start. I find your approach fascinating.

    I do believe in God, as you can probably tell, and do believe the bible is God's inspired word. Therefore, I like to view biblical prophecy in it's written and historical, current, or futuristic context.

    I would like to reply much more to your latest post,...but its time to go home.

    I'll post again soon.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Jeremiah:

    My approach avoids the all or none problem that many have with the Bible. I believe you have to descriminate between what is plausible and what is ridiculous. Yes, it is normal senisbile behavior to pick & choose - especially if you give a lot of thought to your criteria and methods.

    Otherwise, you have to give a free pass to anything designated as a "holy book". Koran, Vedas etc.

  • *jeremiah*
    *jeremiah*

    Revelation describes Babylon the Great as having a Kingdom over the Kings of the Earth. It is "filthy rich" and it sits on or attempts to ride the wild beast. The USA is the richest nation on earth. All those with ships at sea have become rich due to her shameless luxury. Go to Davos and see the Americans strut. "her traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth".

    Further identifying the Wild Beast. Seven heads and ten horns. Five have fallen - likely Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece. One is - Rome. Another which after it arrives remains a short time. The inheritor of power on the Eurasian World Island was Russia. Moscow brags that it is the "third Rome". The seventh head appears slaughtered. Although it doesn't specifiy the seventh head - but since its revival is considered an eighth head it is the best candidate. The USSR died in Dec 1991. This can't be said of any other modern empire. There is no longer a space on the earth occupied by the USSR. A close view is given in Rev 13:11 of the resurrected beast. It appears lamb-like but then begins speaking like the dragon.

    Ok,...so, sorry this is long again.

    The great harlot and the seven-headed ten horned beast:

    1. Described by the angel:

    Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

    a. I will show you the judgment of the great harlot: Her judgment is assured at the outset. There is never any doubt regarding the fate - and ultimate failure - of Babylon.

    i. As a religious system, Babylon came into being long before Christianity, but in Satanic imitation it anticipated the coming true Messiah. According to religious history and legend, the Babylonian religion was founded by the wife of Nimrod (a great-grandson of Noah), named Semiramis. She was a high priestess of idol worship, and she gave birth to a son who she claimed was conceived miraculously. The son, named Tammuz, was considered a savior. Many ancient artifacts remain with the familiar motif of the mother Semiramis holding the savior-infant Tammuz, which predate Christianity. It was also said that Tammuz was killed by a wild beast and then miraculously brought back to life. Baal was the local, Canaanite name for the Babylonian Tammuz.

    ii. The Bible makes specific mention of some of the features of the classic religion of Bablyon:

    • Ezekiel protests against the ceremony of weeping for Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14)
    • Jeremiah mentions the heathen practice of making cakes for the queen of heaven (Jeremiah 7:18) and offering incense to the queen of heaven (Jeremiah 44:17-19, 44:25)

    b. Who sits on many waters: Here, Babylon sits on many waters; that is, she presides over many nations (compare with Revelation 17:15). She has a universal, international character.

    i. This is unification of all false, idolatrous religion, with representatives from apostate Catholicism, Protestantism, as well as a smorgasbord of other religions of the world.

    ii. “The woman pictures false religion that will dominate the world in the tribulation period.” (Hocking) Many people like to identify this great harlot with the Roman Catholic Church, but false religion is not limited to any one church.

    iii. “That Rome and the Romish system are involved, may readily be admitted; but that this is all, and that the sudden fall of Great Babylon is simply the fall of Romanism, or the utter destruction of the city of Rome, must be emphatically denied.” (Seiss)

    c. The inhabitants of the earth were made drunk: Religious Babylon intoxicates kings and peoples. Karl Marx was partly right when he said, “Religion is the opiate of the masses.” He was partly right because empty religion is the opium of the masses.

    d. Made drunk with the wine of her fornication: The idea of fornication often has strong associations throughout the Bible with idolatry. Since this is a well-accepted religious system, it is likely to appear as attractive and spiritual, though not necessarily moral.

    2. (3-6) What John saw.

    So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

    a. He carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness: John is carried away into the wilderness; the desolate nature of the wilderness is an appropriate setting for a vision of judgment.

    b. Sitting on a scarlet beast: The harlot rides the same beast (seven heads and ten horns) that was previously seen in Revelation 13:1 - the Antichrist and his dictatorship.

    i. “Her position, that of riding the beast, indicates on the one hand that she is supported by the political power of the beast, and on the other that she is in a dominant role and at least outwardly controls and directs the beast.” (Walvoord)

    ii. Her association with blasphemy and the dragon’s beast are clearly seen from God’s perspective. But to the people of the earth she will look quite religious, and have the “faith” everybody wants.

    c. The woman is clothed with emblems of luxury (purple . . . gold and precious stones) and government (scarlet). Yet she offers idolatry (abominations) and impurity (filthiness of her fornication) in this sumptuous setting.

    i. Purple and scarlet were colors of splendor and magnificence; the dyes to make fabric these colors were rare and costly.

    ii. “We find in the course of church history that one of the deadliest marks of ecclesiastical corruption is the lust for temporal power.” (Barnhouse) Purple and scarlet were the colors of rulers, whether economic or political.

    d. On her forehead a name was written: The name on her forehead identifies her in more ways than one. Roman prostitutes frequently wore a headband with their name engraved upon it.

    i. “In spite of all her glamour she is nothing but a prostitute.” (Johnson)

    ii. There is a stark contrast between the woman of Revelation 12 (representing Israel, God’s people), and this woman (representing idolatrous, false religion).

    CharacteristicWoman of Revelation 12Harlot of Revelation 17

    Mothers

    Of the Man-Child

    Mother of harlots

    Notably dressed

    In heavenly glories

    In worldly splendor

    Influential

    Moon under her feet

    Over earthly kings

    Suffering

    Attacked by Satan

    Attacked by kings

    iii. “These two Women, thus related, and set over one against the other as opposites and rivals, must necessarily be interpreted in the same way. As Antichrist corresponds to Christ as a rival and antagonist of Christ, so Great Babylon corresponds to the Woman that bears the Man-child, as her rival and antagonist.” (Seiss)

    e. MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT: This title is not forliteralBabylon; but its spiritual (mystery) representation, which is the source (mother) of all idolatry (abominations) and spiritual adultery (harlots).

    i. This harlot must be larger than any one branch of a religious institution. She is the embodiment of Satan’s own ecumenical movement - the religion of the world system.

    ii. Our world, with its “it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you believe” philosophy, is ripe for the harlot’s seductions. We see the casual disregard for the truth crippling the church today.

    f. Drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus : The woman not only persecutes, she revels in her persecution of the godly as a drunk revels in wine.

    g. I marveled with great amazement : Why is John amazed? Because this isn’t pagan persecution (such as he knew in his day), but religious error and persecution. This is a psuedo-church, thirsty for the blood of the saints. “False religion is always the worst enemy of true religion.” (Walvoord)

    C. The great harlot is interpreted.

    1. (7) The angel tells John that the harlot will be explained to him.

    But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.”

    a. I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her: The focus of the explanation is on the beast. It appeared that the harlot ruled (rode) the Antichrist’s system, but he is the dynamic factor, using her as tyrants have always used religion - as a mere tool to accomplish their purposes. The harlot will draw the world to the Anti-christ.

    2. (8) The beast carrying the woman is plainly connected with the beast of Revelation 13.

    The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    3. (9) Seven mountains associated with the beast.

    Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

    a. The seven heads are seven mountains: Many quickly associate the seven mountains with Rome and the Papacy, because Rome is well known as the city on seven hills. Yet literally, the Greek word means mountains, not hills.

    i. Many commentators - especially those who see all of Revelation fulfilled in history - regard the seven mountains as an irrefutable connection with Rome. Clarke is a good example of this when he writes, “This verse has been almost universally considered to allude to the seven hills upon which Rome originally stood.”

    ii. But in the Bible mountains are sometimes a figure of governments (such as in Daniel 2:35) and the city of Rome is built on hills, not mountains.

    b. It is probably better to see the seven mountains as the representing the seven kings and kingdoms described in Revelation 17:10. Many people find the connection between religious Babylon and Roman Catholicism irresistible, yet it is flawed in the sense that there is no doubt that religious Babylon will incorporate a strong Roman Catholic element, but it will be much bigger than Roman Catholicism.

    i. Indications about Roman Catholicism’s ultimate partnership with a one-world religion are evident in Pope John Paul II’s bizarre involvement with and approval of other anti-Christian religions.

    ii. In addressing a prayer gathering of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and others, Pope John Paul II told participants that their efforts were “unleashing profound spiritual energies in the world and bringing about a new climate of peace.” The Pope pledged that “the Catholic Church intends to ‘share in and promote’ such ecumenical and inter-religious cooperation.”

    iii. The Catholic Review commented on this and said, “The unity of religion promoted by the Holy Father Pope John Paul II and approved by His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not a goal to be achieved immediately, but a day may come when the love and compassion which both Buddha and Christ preached so eloquently will unite the world in a common effort to save humanity from senseless destruction, and leading to toward the light in which we all believe.”

    4. (10) Seven kings and kingdoms.

    There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

    a. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come: This is one of the more difficult passages in the Book of Revelation. Some explain these seven kings, five past, one present, and one to come in the succession of Roman Emperors in John’s era. But there are many historical difficulties with this approach. More likely, it is a reference to:

    • Five have fallen refers tothe five world empires before John’s day: Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Medo-Persia, and Greece
    • One is refers to the world empire of John’s day: Rome
    • The other has not yet come refers to the one world empire to come: a revival of the Roman Empire

    b. When he comes, he must continue a short time: This seventh will quickly be taken over by an eighth - and will become the state of the Antichrist (Revelation 17:11).

    i. There are problems with this viewpoint as well (so some have taken the seven as symbolic). This plainly is a difficult passage!

    5. (11) The beast (the Antichrist) is clearly identified as the eighth king.

    And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

    a. Is himself also the eighth: He is of the seven in the sense that he shares characteristics with all previous world empires, but his fate is clear. Perdition means “destruction,” and the beast will be destroyed.

    6. (12-15) Ten kings to come, allies of the Antichrist.

    “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.”

    a. Ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet : This probably alludes to a ten-nation confederation (as in the toes of the Daniel 2:24-45 image), but some take ten as a symbolic number.

    i. “They are ten kingdoms which shall arise out of the fourth great kingdom there: ten European powers, which in the last time, in concert with and subjugation to the antichristian power, shall make war against Christ. In the precise number and form here indicated, they have not yet arisen . . . What changes in Europe may bring them into the required tale and form, it is not for us to say.” (Alford, 1866)

    b. Many have seen the European Economic Community as the potential fulfillment of this. Perhaps, but now there are more than ten nations in this revived European power, and more on the way.

    i. There is little doubt of the credentials of the EEC to claim itself a successor to the ancient Roman Empire. The EEC started in 1957, when six European nations met to talk about combining their nuclear, coal, and economic resources. They met together in Rome, and signed the treaty of Rome - the beginnings of the present EEC. In many places in Europe, the EEC flag is just as prominent as any national flag. In the spiritual dynamic of things, it’s no accident that on the back of the Eurodollar coin is a woman riding a multi-headed beast.

    ii. We could still say what Alford wrote in 1866: “In the precise number and form here indicated, they have not yet arisen . . . What changes in Europe may bring them into the required tale and form, it is not for us to say.” But it will happen, and this confederation of nations will emerge as an heir to the ancient Roman Empire.

    c. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast : Whatever their exact identity, their actions are clear. They ally with the Antichrist in the war against Christ, in the battle alluded to in the sixth and seventh bowls (Revelation 16:12-21).

    d. The harlot presides over peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. This tells us that the harlot’s influence is worldwide, through her connection to the beast. This will be a truly one-world religion.

    e. The interpretation of the harlot focuses on her relation to the beast: she is utterly connected to the beast and his government. If this sounds unthinkable, remember that throughout history, religion - not true Christianity - has often been the willing servant and supporter of tyrants.

    D. The great harlot is judged.

    1. (16) Antichrist’s allies turn on the great harlot.

    And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

    a. These will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire : This violence probably takes place at the mid-point of the tribulation period. Here, apostate religion discovers the true nature of the beast.

    i. Ultimately, the Antichrist will not tolerate any worship except of himself: The son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4)

    b. Once his power has been consolidated, the Antichrist no longer needs the help of religious Babylon. He will then work to dismantle and destroy her and her one-world religion.

    i. This has always been the goal of tyrants - and most politicians - to use religion for their purposes, then discard it.

    2. (17) God’s hand is the One ultimately directs all this.

    For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

    a. God has put it into their hearts: God has directed the judgment against religious Babylon. God will sometimes use a wicked group (here, the ten kings) to be an instrument of His judgment against another wicked group (here, religious Babylon).

    b. To be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast: God has ordained the political support of these ten kings for the Antichrist. In doing so, God gives the world exactly what it wants: godless religion and godless rulers.

    3. (18) The great harlot is identified with Rome.

    And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

    a. That great city: In John’s day, there was no doubt which city reigns over the kings of the earth. Rome was the political, economic, and religious center of the world in John’s day.

    i. But Babylon - in the sense of the world system - has always been that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth. The question for Christians is, “Does it reign over me? Or am I the citizen of a better city, the Jerusalem above?” (Galatians 4:26)

    b. Again, the association of this harlot - of religious Babylon - with Rome doesn’t mean that the Roman Catholic Church is identical to religious Babylon, though apostate Roman Catholics will definitely be a part of this great harlot.

    i. “It is most direct in Paganism; but it is in Mohammedanism, in Papalism, in the degenerate Catholicism of the Eastern churches, and in all the heretical isms, infidelities, and mere goodishness which afflict our Protestant Christianity as well.” (Seiss)

    c.Now, what city this is or where this city is to be located is a matter of speculation. It is quite possible that the city of Babylon described here does not yet exist, but will be built by the antichrist for his capital and for the commercial center of the world. And as they bring the goods by ship and all into this city that there will be a time of tremendous economic prosperity.There are many Bible scholars who believe that the ancient city of Babylon will be chosen by the antichrist for his capital and will be rebuilt at a tremendous expense, as they put it up in a hurry.

    However, this also may be a city already in existance,...but the Anti-christ has to be linked to it.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Jeremiah:

    Have you read the thread where I argue against Babylon the Great being a relgious entity?

    That belief, shared by JW's and most others, is what throws them off.

    But it is a neccessary mis-understanding.

    If Babylon the Great really is the USA at what point would it be good for believers to know that? For example if JW's came to the understanding that Babylon the Great is the USA they would have to make a determination about when to flee. If they had that belief in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis would they have believed that destruction of the USA is close? They would have never used the advantages of the USA to lauch their world wide work. Individual JW's would be jumping the gun so to speak - leaving the USA.

    The appropriate time for the chosen to comprehend the meaning of Babylon the Great is when they must take action and flee for their lives. That point will be when the disgusting thing that causes desolation takes place and hints at a more widespread assault to come.

    The disgusting thing that causes desolation is a destructive event. Imagine that Russia explodes a nuclear device in New York City. They can get away with that by simply blaming it on terrorists. Such a bomb may be there from the cold war - it doesn't have to arrive by missile. What would be the purpose of such a risky act? Destabilize US efforts in Russia's back yard. Set the US back financially and as a global hegemon. It would also be a message to the former Soviet States that they had better ally themselves with Russia because the US is no longer in a position to help them. It would also extend Putin's power because of the emergency situation that would be created.

    The chosen ones would need to change their orientation to accommodate such an event. There would be a period when the chosen could leave the USA. When the leaders of the USA calculate cui bono (who benefits) they will be very suspicious of Russia. Russia will realize that it is only a matter of time before they are found out and will have to strike pre-emptively to totally destroy the USA. Meanwhile the chosen will have escaped.

    After the dust settles the Wild Beast will be in control of the world. They will dominate the World Island Europe,Asia, Africa. They can threaten to nuke any nation that doesn't cooperate with them.

    JW's are uniquely prepared for such an event. They are a boarderless nation. Their world wide brotherhood is a hardened cadres of devoted and obedient members. They can flee the USA to Central and South America and live with their "brothers". This would be a clear signal to the world that they are "special". Many at that time will no doubt be attracted to their teachings and join them. This will be distrubing to the King of the North. He will order that these people are to be exterminated. Either countries follow orders or they will be exterminated.

    In the process of this turmoil perhaps over a billion people will die directly or indirectly. It will be extremely difficult. And it will be at that time that help from the sky arrives. The Wild Beast will be stopped and destroyed. Whatever nations still have power will be allowed to maintain order in their jurisdictions. The chosen take on the role of the model for a New World. They continue to grow until their system covers the entire planet. But don't think that they will be the Watchtower Society - they will be a chastened group worthy of being appointed over all of the Sky Governments interests.

    This is a scenario NOBODY believes. NOBODY wants to believe. BUT......

  • *jeremiah*
    *jeremiah*
    Have you read the thread where I argue against Babylon the Great being a relgious entity?

    Yes,...but I have to disagree. I think my last entry explains why I think Mystery Babylon is a religious entity.

    There is an ecumenical wind blowing through many different religions today that I think will culminate just before the Anti-christ comes on to the scene. A one world religion is arising and you can see it at work now. (JW's have no clue and they will be swept up into this eventually,...probably when they are forced to.)

    The Anti-christ needs this one world religion to take world control and fool the masses. He will be aided by the false prophet. The false prophet will be either the leader or closely associated with the one world religion and appear to be Christian. Yet he will be evil and "speak like a dragon".

    The Anti-christ (beast) along with along with the nation/political entity (beast) will be using the one world religion (Harlot), and in turn, the Harlot will be committing adultery with the beast. She will be in control of the beast, (riding the beast) for a short while until the Anti-christ has what he needs and then he will destroy her.

    The disgusting thing that causes desolation is a destructive event.

    I agree,...it will be a destructive event,...but for the Jews because their most holy temple will be desecrated.

    1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness [ a ] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    There will be a third temple.

    This is something that isn't far-fetched and you can see the development of beginning to take place.

    http://www.templemountfaithful.org/

    http://templemountjerusalem.blogspot.com/

    Sorry,...I have to go,...time to leave work.

    I'll comment more later.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Jeremiah:

    You have in no way made it clear why Babylon the Great is necessarily a religious entity.

    You build your scenario on that assumption. And that is a serious error.

    You have to prove your claim before you build your scenario.

    Start with the fact that all those who have ships at sea have become rich due to her shameless luxury. This particular entity - referred to as Babylon the Great is responsibile for the extra wealth that the world traders enjoy. No religious entity or combined religious entity has the wealth of the USA.

  • *jeremiah*
    *jeremiah*

    I believe there is a two-fold application for the Harlot or Babylon the Great.

    You have to remember,...I don't believe that these prophecies have manifested themselves yet in our present day.

    Ok, so first it says Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and of all the Abominations of the earth. This title is not for literal Babylon; but its spiritual ( mystery ) representation, which is the source ( mother ) of all idolatry ( abominations ) and spiritual adultery ( harlots ).

    So you have the spiritual representation because she sits on many waters which are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues; that is, she presides over many nations. She has a universal, international character.

    Notice the words that are used:

    mother, abominations, harlots, woman, fornication, drunk with the blood of the saints.

    These are words associated in scripture with a religious entity not a political one. In the Bible, in a spiritual sense, adultery is the worship of another god.

    If the USA is the harlot, then who are the "martyrs of Jesus' that she has killed? Who has she fornicated with? What nations is she presiding over? Sure, she is a superpower,...and a major world influence, but is she really presiding over nations? How are the colors purple and scarlet associated with the US?

    Also, how is the US riding the Beast (Russia)? We are more powerful than Russia at this moment,...but are we really controlling Russia? The Beast uses the Harlot to his advantage and then discards her. How is Russia using the USA to its advantage?

    Now,...I'm not saying that Roman Catholicism is the Great Harlot,...but lets look at her example in history. In the middle ages she dominated kings and nations and moved political powers to her liking. This example just shows that this is a possibility of how a religious entity can ride a political entity and in doing so,...commit fornication.

    Ok, the second application,...is that she needs a headquarters or a city. "And that woman who you saw is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth."

    How do you reconcile that the USA is not a city?

    From scripture it looks like not only will Babylon the Great be an entity of power over the nations but she will also reside or have her headquarters in a city. This city will be the focal point of false religion and international wealth and commerce. I don't believe this city is in existence yet.

    Start with the fact that all those who have ships at sea have become rich due to her shameless luxury. This particular entity - referred to as Babylon the Great is responsibile for the extra wealth that the world traders enjoy.

    I'll repeat,...because the point was made very clear in my last posts,...the city/ religious entity is not in existence yet. What you state above can't happen at this point yet because it doesn't exist. We can see the world moving in this direction (for the spirit of the antichrist is already here),...but it's not in fulfillment.

    Why?

    12 "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

    Ok, so we don't have ten kings who have given their power to the Beast yet. These powers are not in existence yet. If the beast is in existence (like you say it is),...then that means the 10 kings have to be in existence too,...so in your scenario,...who are the ten kings?

    And remember,...the woman is riding this beast. So where is the woman,...again,...she's not in complete fulfillment yet either.

    The city of Babylon the Great will be chosen by the antichrist for his capital and will be either built or rebuilt at a tremendous expense, as they put it up in a hurry. There are indications that this city will be built quite rapidly. That craftsmen from all over the world will be paid premium wages and thousands will descend upon this area with unlimited funds to build this awesome wonderful city that shall be the center of world banking and world commerce. We are told in the book of Daniel that when the antichrist establishes his reign that the craftsmen will prosper in his reign.

  • Golf
    Golf

    It's all a big CHESS game. Behind the scenes are the elite rich of the world and the Jesuits. I'll put my money on THEM!!!!!! They will battle it out. One has material wealth and the other a massive religious population. Who wants POWER?

    "You can dance with the Devil but you cannot lead."


    Golf

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Jeremiah:

    And it must occur at the end of seventy years that Jehovah will turn his attention to Tyre (a political entity), and she must return to her hire and commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth upon the surface of the ground."

    Is this self-explanatory? Are you going to make the claim that Tyre is NOT a political entity? How can Tyre be a political entity and simultaneously commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the earth BUT Babylon the Great cannot?

    Revelation 18:23

    because your traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth.

    Again this is the same language used to describe Tyre at Isaiah 23:8

    Who is it that has given this counsel against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, whose merchants were princes, whose tradesmen were the honorable ones of the earth?

    Was Ninevah a political entity or was it a religion? We know it was the capital of the Assyrian World Empire. So then explain how it is possible to be described the way it is at Nahum 3:4

    Owing to the abundance of the acts of prostitution of the prostitute, attractive with charm, a mistress of sorceries, she who is ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries

    Here is an example of a political entity that in addition to being referred to as a prostitute is also a sorcerer or practicer of spiritism. Does that mean that Ninevah could not possibly be a political kingdom and must therefore be a religious entity? NO. It appears a political kingdom CAN be referred to as carrying on spiritistic practices.

    Read Revelation 18:24 for yourself. "Yes in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth". This hyperbole is almost the same as that used to describe the blood-guilt of the political enity - Babylon .

    Jeremiah 51:49 "Not only was Babylon the cause for the slain ones of Israel to fall but also at Babylon the slain ones of ALL the earth have fallen" Ancient Babylon was a political enitty. Are you going to believe that wagon loads of captured soldiers were carted to Babylon where they were finally executed?

    Are you still going to argue that Babylon the Great is some World Empire of False Religion?

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