saved at a Promise Keepers convention (page 4)

How about I give a bit more serious answer this time around, though I think there were some kernels of truth in my "bird" story. All good things do indeed come from God, they can have no other choice. If we accept good things from God should we not also accept that which WE see as not so good. Remember, we don't see these things from God's perspective.

I'm truly sorry for your cousins death, and happy about your friends remission from the lymphoma. His remission is not due to his FAITH, but because somehow it fits into God's plan. The death of your cousin was precious in the eyes of God and somehow or another also fit into His plan for us. I don't pretend to understand it, but yet trust in God who is all good and all loving. The untimely death of my brother (he was murdered) seemed such a tragedy at the time, and while it is still a tragedy, our family has grown, and God as made good come from it.

"Saved from what if Christ died for all" you ask. Saved from ourselves is the answer. Christ indeed redeemed all mankind by his death, but that redemption is not in itself salvation. We still have free will, and we still have to decide whether we will try to follow God or not. It's not so much that we are saved FROM anything, but rather saved TO God from our own self will.

You did say one very important thing later in this thread, no where does the bible say we have to understand Jesus as God to be saved. The simple gospel states only that we beleive Jesus came, that he died for us, and that we beleive he rose again. Nothing is said of understanding Jesus as Divine, though I do see Him as such. Further, while Jesus is indeed the only road to heaven, it is not up to us to determine HOW God accomplishes this. Paul tells us in Romans chapter 2 that even those who have never heard the gospel can be saved. In this I see many Jews and Muslims, Buddists and Taoists being saved if they truly follow their God given conscience. Safe to say I will NOT be their judge, nor do I want to be.

This spiritual experience of being saved is quite powerful though, try to be happy for those who have expereinced it.

Hope this has been helpful, you truly are a Princess.

Yeru

YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

joelbear

Princess,

Like anything else people use religious thought of all kinds for their own purposes. Most use it for emotional support, some as an ethical guide, many more to justify agendas.

I caught a scene on the Trinity Broadcasting Network (competitor of 700 club) last night that stunned me. It showed Jesus on board Columbus's ship guiding him to the New World, thus promoting the concept that stealing 2 continents from their inhabitants, slaughtering them and taking their wealth was all part of Christs plan for the earth.

How odd can you get?

peace

Joel

Princess

Thanks for your comments Yeru. I believe what someone said earlier about "time and unforseen occurance befall us all". I just can't swallow the "god's plan" theory. It doesn't make sense to me that a loving god would take a child from it's parents or parents from a child because it was part of his plan. What could god need with a small child? How could god need a mommy more than her children? Thanks also for being the first one to say that we do not have to recognize Jesus as god in order to be saved, I can't buy that line either.

I am happy for those who are saved, not nearly as happy as they are though. I guess I just feel it is more of a private thing and I am a bit offended when someone asks me if I am saved. What possible difference could that make in our relationship? It reminds me of dubs asking how many hours I got in or if I was pioneering, etc, etc. You were very helpful. Thank you again.

Joel, that is weird. Sometimes I wonder if anyone really thinks things through anymore. Thanks for your thoughts!

Princess

Yerusalyim

Don't mistake my saying that God can make good come from all things as making death, etc part of God's PLAN. This little thing called Free Will has really thrown a wrench into the works. While God is soveriegn, he also honors the will he gave us. Generally speaking, if I choose to kill someone, God won't stop me. But this person's death would be precious in His eyes, and He could make good come of it even in the face of such an evil. I don't pretend to understand God's wisdom in this. I don't know why bad things happen to good people, or why good things happen to bad people. But I do know that God didn't spare His own Son, yet accomplished the GREATEST GOOD in His death. How can I expect to be spared if Christ wasn't?

YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

Princess

Ah! Thanks for the clarification.

Princess

MegaDude

Hi Princess,

you said:
It doesn't make sense to me that a loving god would take a child from it's parents or parents from a child because it was part of his plan.

This is one of the things I brought up in a Sunday school Bible study myself. The conductor sheepishly admitted that God didn't "take" anybody, especially a child, in death to be with him. He said it was just a saying that had wormed it's way into church thinking.

I struggle with the doctrine of Jesus. I'm still reading and studying that topic. I do know that Jesus could have cared less about the mountain of doctrine that his church had back in his day. Didn't he say, love God with your whole heart, mind and soul, and love your brother as yourself? That's real Christianity in my opinion. Not faith in a myriad interpretations of scripture.

"Hope is a good thing... maybe the best of things."
Andy's letter to Red in the Shawshank Redemption

Esmeralda

Hey Mulan,

Good for you for standing up to the chick. I would have had to say the same thing you did. And as far as this quote:

When I said "they are all the same", I meant RELIGIONS are all the same. They all think they have the corner on salvation. For me, I am through with religion.

Well said, girl! You totally summed up in one short, beautiful paragraph the way I feel about religion. I'm going to copy and paste that so I remember it when my family preaches at me *lol*

Love to you and Princess
*hug*
es

Vienna

Romans 3:23 we all fall short of God
Romans 5:8 Christ died for us
Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life
Romans 10:9, 10 confess Jesus as Lord, resulting in salvation
Romans 10:13 whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved
_________
If someone gives you a gift, don't you have to move to pick it up? There is action on your part to hold it, open it, etc. You have received the gift. It's a free gift from God but you must receive it as laid out in scripture.

Faith: either you have it or you don't. Simple fact, basic truth.

Mulan

I read your words, and they look all too familiar. Reasoning Book, achhhhh.........gag me. More scriptures taken out of context.

Hey Essie, thanks. I am getting so cynical!!

Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
"Those who know, don't say, and those who say, don't know."

saved at a Promise Keepers convention

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