by Terry 171 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Narkissos and I never debate. I'm the white keys and he's the dark keys and together we play our version of Ebony and Ivory!
He has a beautiful mind and a pleasant manner of presentation that gets his point across.
Inspiriing
I have finally understood too - some of it anyway
amen
bernadette
It isn't so bad being a fart.
Yeah Baby! It's a gas!
Psychology is not a science. Psychiatry is not a science. There are behavioral studies, experiments and data involved but no predictability as in the REAL sciences.
LMAOROTFL !!!! I think you've been reading too much "Scientology" literature Terry, or perhaps watching too many Tom Cruise interviews.
Both Psychology and Psychiatry are UNEQUIVOCALLY hard scientific disciplines that strictly adhere to classic modes of experimentation requiring hypotheses, experimentation, null hypotheses, dependent AND independent variables. ALL research findings in BOTH fields are submitted to peer-reviewed journals. If you have any lingering doubts about this simply take a look at any of the following independent journals: American Journal of Psychiatry, Neuropsychiatry, Journal of Clinical Psychology, Molecular Psychiatry, Psychiatric Genetics, and I could add HUNDREDS more. Since I have personally published my work in TWO of the above journals, I can assure the editorial and review process is as rigorous as those found in any other field of scientific inquiry.
Your comment regarding "predictability in the REAL sciences" betrays a fundamental misunderstanding about the scientific method common amongst those who have never performed a scientific experiment or had their research peer-reviewed and published. We DONT make "predictions" a priori....this would be the opposite intellectual approach one would make when designing an experiment. We ALWAYS assume our results are UNPREDICTABLE, which is precisely why we use the concept of the "null hypothesis". "Predictability" falls within the domain of Tarot card readers, not scientists formulating an experimental program.
They neither exonerate, dung, piss, nor spit in that island; but, to make amends, they belch, fizzle, funk, and give tail-shots in abundance.
Ahh, Narkissos, you've enlarged my repetoire of colorful vocabulary yet once again!
Psychology is not a science. Psychiatry is not a science. There are behavioral studies, experiments and data involved but no predictability as in the REAL sciences.
LMAOROTFL !!!! I think you've been reading too much "Scientology" literature Terry, or perhaps watching too many Tom Cruise interviews.
Both Psychology and Psychiatry are UNEQUIVOCALLY hard scientific disciplines that strictly adhere to classic modes of experimentation requiring hypotheses, experimentation, null hypotheses, dependent AND independent variables. ALL research findings in BOTH fields are submitted to peer-reviewed journals.
Would help you if I added the word "pure"? As in, Pure Science?
The scientific method seeks to explain the complexities of nature in a replicable way, and to use these explanations to make useful predictions. It provides an objective process to find solutions to problems in a number of scientific and technological fields. Often scientists have a preference for one outcome over another, and scientists are conscientious that it is important that this preference does not bias their interpretation. A strict following of the scientific method attempts to minimize the influence of a scientist's bias on the outcome of an experiment. This can be achieved by correct experimental design, and a thorough peer review of the experimental results as well as conclusions of a study.
If you really are interested in the distinction and the difference between what Psychologists do and what Psychiatrists do and what Pure Science is we can talk about it here.
Otherwise, I'll just regard your comment as a "gotcha".
I have a reason for what I wrote and I stand by it.
The chief problem with both psychology and psychiatry is rather obvious (to me). Both treat human behavior as a phenomenon in itself linked to the state of a person's mind. By seeking to analyze the state of mind of an individual and diagnose it (as well as treating the body/brain with drugs) a therapy model is introduced.
The clunker in this premise is there is no control ideal state of mind and only social norms are used to diagnose behaviors. For example, a genius operates at a different level of competency in information processing than others in the community at large. The extraordinary range and scope of a genius' thinking often produces behaviors which aren't socially compatible with his fellow man. Is this a problem? Is it a behavioral deficit, an emotional deficit, a social instability? Neither Psychology nor Psychiatry have a means of identifying social interactions vis a vis intelligence to establish what is Normal. In fact, "Normal" becomes a misnomer.
Without a baseline to measure the very thing it is examining, these "sciences" operate on ad hoc theories which create false dichotomies for diagnoses and treatments.
Brain state. This is not an objective thing to measure. Your brain state at the circus on a winter evening is different from my Aunt Shirley's at the Opera in Mid July and there is no finite reason why they should be.
Unless and until there is a tangible involved (not behavior vis a vis social norms) for scientists to poke at and pull apart these "sciences" are a step above the witch doctor.
I have a 16 year old son who has operated at the top 99.9 percentile function since he was two years old.(In other words, there is hardly anybody in the country who tests higher than he does.)
He is extraordinarily gifted in many ways. About a year and one half ago he collapsed. He could not go to school or face normal daily pressures. He seemed unable to cope with things involving decisions. He became germ phobic. He washes his hands until they bleed. He is obsessive and compulsive.
We've taken Nicholas to every psychologist, psychiatrist and therapist that the finest insurance available can pay for. He has had almost $80,000 worth of treatments. He has had bloodwork, MRI's, Catscans, X-rays and counseling.
I've seen him with counselors who are bullies, counselors who are technicians, counselors who are tricksters, counselors who are indifferent. I've seen therapists who are nuttier than a fruitcake, boring as a pile of pebbles and therapists who care deeply and don't know what to do.
This field of "science" is full of highly educated shaman, witchdoctors, well-intentioned drones, bright theorists without a clue and mundane grunts who utter cliches.
I know first hand whereof I speak, thank you.
Terry
I have chosen to comment because no one else has, after your very moving and personal revelation about your son. I am sorry to hear of the difficulties he is experiencing.
It seems that your son has inherited your driven mind. Instead of that mental power running in a straight line as yours appears to it can turn in a circle. Like a dog chasing it’s own tail. Compulsive obsessive disorder is one of the hardest conditions to treat and often occurs as boys turn into men. The more pressure the mind is put under to change the more anxious it becomes.
In one type of meditation the mind is able to be fully conscious without he intrusion of words, which lead to thoughts, which start the pattern again. There is a moment when the mind stands still in full consciousness and in that moment the cycle is broken. Sleep will not achieve this. It has to be done in a fully conscious state.
There is an ebb and a flow to thought and a point of stillness between the two. People with very active minds find it difficult to achieve this or see the point of it and that is why it benefits them the most.
Many people have explained this better than I can, including Narkissos and James Thomas. My thoughts are not new and have strong attachments to eastern religion which is the foundation of psychotherapy due to people like Fritz Perls and his concept of Gestalt Therapy?
I have some idea of what you will think of my suggestion, knowing your views on meditation and the mental health profession. Sometimes the answers we seek are found in that which we resist. I don’t expect you to agree or appreciate my comments but sometimes we have to say what we feel - that is something I think you will understand!
trevor
Terry, your "I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I stood proud and tall..." post was an exquisite classic, fit for framing and placing on a wall.....hopefully in every Kingdom Hall. May I live to see the day.
Narkissos, there are many, many champions of the religious, logical, scientific and philosophical ways of thinking here. It is not that I "hate thinking", rather I down-play it in attempts at pointing to what comes before it. That, which thinking happens within. That, which unites us even when thinking seemingly divides us. It is not necessary to switch thinking off in order to realize what thinking unfolds within; it is just that a quiet mind can be more conducive to such observation. Thinking is a wondrous and helpful thing; it's just that there is much suffering and division when we come to believe it is the beginning and end of our identity.
I suggest that the null point, or pause, is actually always here as the most immediate reality of what we truly are. It may indeed be most noticeable in the pause -- like the space between these words -- but actually the space is a little glimpse of the open expanse we would call a page, or the foundation which the words rely upon for their existence.
This is what I have continually attempted to point to: the vast foundational conscious-beingness upon which all phenomena owes sustenance and existence. It's here now, closer than thought. It is the silent, boundless, unifying purity that unites us one and all. It is what we truly and naturally are, and so can be consciously realized if there is a sincere willingness to look and investigate, and an openness to letting go of everything the mind defines "self" as being.
j
Terry,
I am really sorry for this painful situation.
My concern with psychiatry is that (as other applied sciences) it tends to work mainly as a subsection of police. That is, in a mostly repressive way. Track down and label the "dysfunctional" and have it "function" again quickly or put it aside and make it quiet and invisible so that it doesn't disturb -- or question -- the rest of "normal functioning".
"Reason" running to escape from its shadow. And so much suffering in between.
Trevor and James,
Thanks for what you wrote, which I deeply respect
It just happens that like the fool of Proverbs I reject method.
That may be my (anti-)method.
What an interesting thread! TERRY, i followed your link about god, & it struck me hard. ( i'm sneakingly reading it now because my wife and parents is sensing something different about my opinions!)long ago i have a distant feeling about this, and this thread that you started was an intriguing coincidence to me. as born in a witness family, i was raised to believed in a god, but i find very disturbing conclusions in my readings about common scientific books. i always keep those conflicts in my heart. how i wish this discussion was started 10 years ago so i may evade those futile years i spent in the ministry! right now i felt i am less than halfway about the REALIZATIONS that you and others here possess. i enjoyed greatly reading all you comments here. hope someday i could catch up with all of you.
