In the end, what will really matter? (page 2)

Hellrider

Ex-witless: I absolutely agree. I came to the same conclusion myself. My summary eventually ended up being: "Ok, God, if he exists, couldn`t possibly get mad at me for not believing (when taking into consideration how much horror religion has caused over the centuries, the millions of starving children, science, that has proved without a doubt that there is evolution taking place in nature, etc). And so, if God exists, and also is good, he couldn`t possibly blame me for not believing in something that I can`t see. After all, he`s the one that gave me this analytical, sceptical mind. And therefore, what it all comes down to, is what I do, not what I believe or don`t believe! Because I still feel strongly the difference between good and bad, and I am a person that constantly evaluates my own values, morals, prejudices, etc, I can`t really be that bad. And if there is a God, and this is not enough for him, then to hell with him. Case closed!"

YoursChelbie

I concur with Ed.

In the end, what will really matter?
My love for friends and family and how I acted out that love.
Ed.

YC

jgnat

"I can't KNOW for a fact anything. I can choose to believe something, based on my research and "soul-searching", but I can't know it.

I like that.

merely a human

WT-speak. You have a magnificent mind built by God to THINK. You certainly can figure things out on your own.

But same goes for the rest of religions claiming a "prize" for obedience

I feel my faith is more to do with gratefulness, gratefulness for being rescued from myself. JW's have diminished the prize of salvation that "evangelical Christendom" offers. This is not so much the future hope of heaven, but a complete and instant forgiveness from the burden of a lifetime of sin. Following this, residence of Christ in our hearts, to guide us to good an love a lifetime long.

Consider that there might between a 1.5 between your options 1 and 2. There is a God, and man regularly gets it wrong. The bible is an approximation.

What do I actually believe?', my answer was "I don't know what I believe." I still don't know what I believe.

I had similar feelings on a much smaller scale when I left "home" when my children became adults. Alone, I didn't know what music I liked. It took me a while. I know it sounds silly, but your comment really helped me relate to that feeling of "Who am I?" "Where did I go?" "When did I lose myself?" I must fight for my identity again now that I am married. Again, the radio station is tuned to my family's preference.

Just this Christmas, I indulged in an MP3 player to listen to my favorites...an odd mix to be sure. There's a bit of medaeval, calypso, African, country ballads and Black Gospel. Oh, and the Barenaked Ladies' Green Christmas.

Narkissos

Hi exwitless,

There is one assumption that you did not question (unless I missed something), namely that "God," should he exist, would have any interest in judging his "creatures," or "children"... why would he, really? When I was still a JW this idea once struck me as utterly ludicrous, and I could never take it seriously again. If we were able to see through the "reward & punishment" pattern (as you put it, from a JW perspective it would actually make "Satan'"s point, not "God"'s), how can we believe (or, rather, fear) that "God" doesn't?

I also find interesting that we may perceive our humanity as a limitation to "knowledge," whereas for all we know (!) the human brain and language is just what brought "knowledge" into the world. We do perceive our knowledge as limited, but why do we? Is it because we have the intuition of some higher, suprahuman knowledge, or because we feel that our type of knowledge (through the mediation of language and concepts) alienated us from an immediate relationship to whatever is to be "known," as we perceive in the so-called "inferior" beings?

Iow moral and intellectual self-consciousness, with the accompanying concerns and worries, may just be the corollary of being human. Does projecting them on a judgemental and all-knowing "God" help us cope with them, by dramatising them? Maybe, to an extent. But if/when the "God"-bubble bursts we are left with the tragic, yet superb, loneliness of "I am".

ICBehindtheCurtain

Possibility #1: There is a god, and the bible is more or less right. OK, if I believe this is so, then I will be held accountable to god when I die for my actions as a believer. How do I KNOW there's a god and that the bible is correct? I can have "faith", I can strongly believe it, but how can I KNOW it? I can't. I am limited by my state of being to know for a fact. There are many others of various religions who strongly believe in their way of thinking as much as Christians do, so what makes them any less 'right' than those of a Christian belief system?

Possibility #2: There is no god, and the bible is a book written solely by men, without any actual divine inspiration. How can I KNOW that there isn't a god? How can I know that the bible was just a compilation of man's thoughts and interpretations of circumstances facing the writers? I can't know it, because I can't teleport myself back in time and ask Moses "Did god really say that?" I can read books by others who have deeply researched the subject, where there are as many supporters of the bible's divinity as there are supporters of it's being man-made.

You didn't consider Possibility #3: There is a god/goddess/creator/energy source, but he/she/it did not author the bible, men did that for different reasons, mainly to be able to control the masses. He.she/it does not hold us accountable for anything, because we are just living different experiences in our present bodies, and once this particular life is done, we return to the source and get to try it again if we so choose. He/she/it gave us free will and reason, and all those other qualities which make life a rich and interesting experience. These are just my thoughts.

IC

Elsewhere

In the end, what will really matter?

Chocolate!

exwitless

Narkissos - I wish I had your gift with words. You're posts are always intriguing to read. Thanks for your thoughtful contribution.

that "God," should he exist, would have any interest in judging his "creatures," or "children"... why would he, really?

Excellent point. In addition to my 2 possibilities, I'm sure there are numerous others worthy of thinking through. You're correct that it is an assumption that 'God' (if he exists) necessarily intends or desires to judge people at all. This is an idea I had always been conditioned to believe.

I agree with Jgnat's and your posts regarding the "limitations" on knowledge as mere humans. I think, again, that I have always been conditioned to believe that no matter how intelligent a human is, he cannot begin to claim to have all the knowledge that is "out there", because "god" doesn't allow humans to be omniscient. When I commented on my limitiations as a human, it was in context with the possibility of an intelligent god who knows I can't know what he does. Does that make sense?

Thanks everyone for the enlightening remarks. Keep 'em coming. I find this discussion to be quite therapeutic.

exwitless

If you have money you can fill the empty void of atheism with the stuff money can buy (virtually everything).

You assert atheism creates a void in one's life. I suspect atheists would strongly disagree. If I were an atheist (as I previously stated, I am avoiding labeling myself with any type of belief), I would likely feel that being atheistic allows one to feel quite free; free of being bound to endless commandments, fear of godly disapproval/punishment, etc. It's like saying a person who was let out of jail has a void to fill now that he's not in prison.

That having been said, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate over atheism.

Iow moral and intellectual self-consciousness, with the accompanying concerns and worries, may just be the corollary of being human. Does projecting them on a judgemental and all-knowing "God" help us cope with them, by dramatising them? Maybe, to an extent. But if/when the "God"-bubble bursts we are left with the tragic, yet superb, loneliness of "I am".

This is a thought I have had off and on (though I've not been able to word it quite so succinctly); the thought that humans have "invented" the whole notion of a "heavenly father" to have a 'person' on which to deflect the troubles of everyday life. How often I have heard people say, in reference to a loved one dying, "God must have had a special plan for him in heaven to take him so young." It may be easier to deal with death this way than to be forced to deal with the cold hard facts of it.

Similarly, in life, some people need an ever present, all knowing being in their lives to feel like they have some guidance in their decisions. Perhaps the natural evolution (if you will forgive my vague use of this term) of man will be that he realizes that the powers he always thought were "god-given" were always there, but he was previously unaware of this or unwilling to entertain the idea to explore complete self-reliance.

Marcel

hi exwitless! ive never read a forum post which hits my very own thoughts so exactly as yours did. im still an (active) witness with serious doubts and it will probably end in shunning sometime (if i dont change mind in the next years). i wont say jw's are wrong, because i just dont know it. i DOUBT the WTS is gods channel highly "only" - it doesnt mean im fully sure they arent his channel (like 20:80). i just can go on pretending im a jehovas witness with sparkle in my eyes of happiness about the "slave". thank you for your thoughts! Marcel

anewme

I am a very simple person.

I have spent years trying to find and figure out God and I still cant write a full paragraph on him that stands the test of all criticism.

So I plead retardation.

(No one holds the retarded responsible)

In the end, what will really matter?

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