LOVE, ALTRUISM & EVOLUTION

by Dansk 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Dansk
    Dansk
    If you read my entire post you should find that I do not deny evolution. The difference between Scientific theory and general theory is not confusing and I take offence that you seem to beleive that I am confused.

    Lumptard, you take offence very easily. My intention was not to offend and never is. If you feel I have wronged you I sincerely apologise.

    You cannot revise a fact, therefore a scientific theory (e.g. evolution) is not a fact. It is accepted as fact, but based on the scientific method, it is not actually one.

    Some time ago someone posted on an evolution thread giving examples of evolution actually taking place now. Wish I knew which thread it was and, if they're reading this, perhaps they'll repost the example(s) (one example was concerning plants). My own area of expertise is in ornithology and, to this end, I can cite a number of bird species that have evolved to super species level in our time, such as Serins (Serinus), like flavigula, sulphuratus, striolatus, gularis, citrinelloides and atrogularis. A further example is the black-headed canary which has recently been designated as a superspecies, i.e. a grouping of very closely related and largely allopatric birds (i.e. species or subspecies in which their ranges do not overlap, as opposed to sympatric). You may already know this but I also write it for the benefit of others. This generally means that they have common ancestry but have developed over time into true species due to their geographic isolation. In other words, the black-headed canary was once grouped with all the serins and given the scientific name Serinus alario. Now, it is known as Alario alario. This is evolution in action. (Sorry about the formatting changing).

    So, from ornithological examples we can see that birds are evolving TODAY. They are still birds, of course, just as we are still primates. Therefore, evolution is accepted as fact because it is taking place all the time.

    Ian

  • done4good
    done4good
    Evolution is a scientific theory, not a fact.

    Evolution is a fact. How it happened in its completeness is what remains theoretical.

    j

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    Uh-oh. . .
    Hope he's only a Sunday creationist.

    TB? My God, are you sure?
    Afraid so. But we caught it early.

    So my prognosis is good?
    Depends. Are you a creationist?

    Why yes I am, why do you ask?
    Because I need to know of you want me to treat the TB bug as it was before antibiotics.

    ...or as the multi-drug-resistant strain it has since evolved into.

    Evolved?
    Your choice. If you go with the Noah's Ark version, I'll just give you Streptomycin.

    Um... What are the newer drugs like?
    They're intellectually designed.

  • tall penguin
    tall penguin

    LOL Gary. That's awesome.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Sweeping generalization that you can't prove or even argue successfully.

    You mean like your statement above?

  • Terry
    Terry
    Altruism evolved for a purpose

    Evolution cannot have a "purpose" it is blind.

    Virtually all anthropological studies have confirmed that within primate social structures, "selfish" behaviour invariably leads to expulsion from the group

    Which is the source of practical "morality" and not the refutation of anything I said.

    "I don't see altruism as a benefit at all!"

    >See above, and read Dawkins "The Selfish Gene".

    I have read Dawkins AND Ayn Rand. Have you?

    " A grenade lands in a foxhole and one person throws their body over it to absorb the damage rather than everybody dying. This is logical and demonstrates how the attrition redounds to the benefit of one's fellows (valued by friendship and comraderie.)"

    Yes, OK. But how is this altruism "logical" while others are not? What exactly is the "type" of altruism you find to be irrational?

    I don't want to insult you by spoon-feeding this to you, but; since you asked I'll repeat. Throwing your body over a grenade in a foxhole makes perfect logical sense because everybody will die ANYWAY. Why NOT save the others? It isn't, as they say, Rocket science. All altrusim puts more value in the OTHER than the SELF which is the very opposite of evolution and survival. Only in social situations beyond a certain survival standard is the STRATEGY of Altrusim interpreted as viable to the individual. This isn't programmed into anybody's gene! It is invented socially.

    Parents attach considerable value to their children because they carry their DNA and genetic heritage forward to further generations, but I did enjoy your sentimentality in that statement!

    When you ask people "WHY?" they do things are you actually going to get a factual answer if the person isn't highly attuned to every single thought they are thinking in terms of rationality? No! People tend to justify and rationalize what they do according to social norms, pressures and religious creeds. I'd guess not one person in 20 really "knows" fully why they do anything.

    Altruism has a long history of destructive results. I'm frankly quite surprised at the lack of historical and philosophical perspective on the relatedness of Altruism and tyranny. A philosophical indoctrination of Altruism is a set up to use people as tools of the state, tools of religious cults and to insure cheap labor through volunteerism. Look at how much Altruism runs the Watchtower Society so cheaply as people labor in Bethel and on the Farms for a pittance until they retire to poverty or get "fired" without a golden parachute.

    Altruism is the signal somebody's rational mind isn't working properly.

  • bavman
    bavman

    There are different arguments among evolutionists as regards to altruism. Some see altruism as Terry described, others see it differently. I bought a book by Dr. Franz de Waal after going to his lecture entitled "Our Inner Ape" to be most enlightening. The good doctor is a leading primatologist and psychologist who is a specialist on Bonobos. Altruism in my opinion a great benefit to ourselves and society and in fact has played a wonderful part in evolution. Get the book. He can explain much better than I . Also, if you get the opportunity, go observe some Bonobos.

  • Dansk
    Dansk
    if you get the opportunity, go observe some Bonobos.

    For love or for sex?

    Ian

  • RAF
    RAF

    (since I'm willing to joke about that) : the swin from what I came from ... LOL ... (why not after all - since scientists can state whatever with no links from other kind evolutions) feel that love is alchimic (when the two or more are in love it gives a need to stay connected in a way or an other even just by knowing or feeling it - true love don't even really need physical attachement - nobody is somebody else's property - and love can't be a jail) but altruisme is rational reaction (depending on our state of mind) you can do something to help someone you just do it (even if you don't know them / will never see them again / won't get anything from them) just because it's cool and gives you the feeling that you are usefull and can bring something into other peoples life. Eddited to add ... some people even don't care dying for that ... just because it's important for them to usefull in the matter they are willing to act on.

  • tall penguin
    tall penguin

    "you can do something to help someone you just do it (even if you don't know them / will never see them again / won't get anything from them) just because it's cool and gives you the feeling that you are usefull and can bring something into other peoples life"

    I'm not picking on you particularly RAF but the words "gives you the feeling that you are usefull" make me question whether this is altruism or not. I really wonder about what really motivates people. Is it their desire to help others as a sole motive or is there an ego-based need that is asking to be filled. Do we help others, express love, show affection, etc. for the other or is it because it makes us feel better about us?

    tall penguin

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