LOVE, ALTRUISM & EVOLUTION

by Dansk 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  trevor

  I have a brother who thinks that love exists outside of ourselves in an invisible dimension ad we can choose to be a channel for love or not. I used to think this but have changed my view. We have some interesting discussions over a few pints and are able to respect each other viewpoint and exchange ideas.

  I would say that love has developed along with the ability to reason. Love is the powerful emotion we feel towards someone who shares our values or can offer us something that we place a high value on.

  When married people find that they no longer find what they need in their partner they become unhappy and usually end up parting. They sometimes claim that they still love their partner but leave and go off to find someone else to ‘love.’

  What they are doing is attempting to preserve the precious memories of a time when they did love their partner. I am inclined to think that romantic love is far more of a deal than we would like to admit!
• 

  Terry

  What makes a man sacrifice his life (unintentionally, I grant you) for the sake of his dog?! If it were the other way round one could argue "it's a pack thing."

  You actually contained your own answer here: there was no "sacrifice" pre se! The loss of life was UN-intentional. The man was retrieving something precious and the effort went awry. It was an accident.

  It could easily be the man reaching down in his car to retrieve a dropped CD and being struck by a bus.

  Sacrifice is the key word. The man would have had to INTEND to give up his own life to rescue his dog as a matter of moral duty for it to be Altruistic rather than an impulsive act.

  Besides, none of this answers my question as to how love developed.

  I've certainly answered this question before--but, nobody LIKES my answer!

  Love is a concept (Genus) of emotion which is defined (differentia) by a series of values attached to an object/person.

  It is the strongest (most intense) feeling involuntarily experienced when the object of our values embodies those values to the greatest degree.

  As a simple example.

  Which object would you expend time, energy and risk trying to obtain:

  1.A half-eaten pickle

  2.A coin

  3.A $10,000 bill

  ???????

  That is pretty easy to answer, right?

  The obvious value of the currency has many connotations to us because the money would fulfill many of our personal needs! We immediately recognise the opportunity to satisfy our needs when we see the object ($10,000).

  Consequently, we are strongly motivated to seek to obtain the money.

  Now convert this analogy into human terms vis a vis an object which is a living creature.

  If we meet someone who embodies so many characteristics which would (we think) potentially satisfy our strongest needs (affection, sex, companionship, friendship, security, shared commiseration, etc.) our impulse (emotion) responds to that recognition and we are moved to ACT to obtain it (her/him).

  It is SELFISH (but not in that tawdry sense we all are taught to cringe at.)

  As natural creatures that crave survival it is incumbant upon us to further our success in life by recognising our NEEDS and those objects (people/things) which would satisfy them most.

  We have a range of values and there are a range of objects embodying those values. The object (person/thing) that embodies our values to the greatest extent (by evaluation) triggers the strongest involuntary emotional reaction.

  This unbidden (involuntary) emotion is our signal (just like feeling hungry tells us to eat) to survive better!

  How? By seeking to obtain the personification of need-satisfaction. I.e. we call this LOVE and we say we have "Fallen" (involuntary and strong is the emotion.)

  No mystery there, brother!
• 

  Terry

  I have a brother who thinks that love exists outside of ourselves in an invisible dimension ad we can choose to be a channel for love or not.

  Your brother would get along quite well with PLATO!!

  Plato postulated his theory of "the forms" which were idealized concepts (quite detached from referents) transcending existence and more real than reality. (I know, I know--it is silly.)

  Those who are persuaded by Platonic reasoning have as a core philosophy PRIMACY OF CONSCIOUSNESS. (What you imagine comes from a greater truth than what you "know" because what you "know" is imperfectly perceived.)

  Naturally, I am going to tell you Aristotle came along after Plato and gave us Logic as a better method of gaining knowledge than peering "within" to some imaginary stream of floating "Truth" greater than reality.

  For one thing, Aristotle's logic (the source of all science and technology which followed) demands the correspondancy between the outside of us (reality) and our mind be free of ALL CONTRADICTION. In Aristotle's philosophy there is no such thing as contradiction in true things. Contradiction is a warning signal that there is an error in our thinking!

  This gives us a way to check whether or not we are correct!

  Think of arithmetic as a logical error correcting mechanism when comparing a quantity with an ideal result. If there is a contradiction we know there is an error.

  Aristotle gives us a way to make certain our paycheck corresponds to the hours we worked at our rate of pay.

  Plato gives us "Truth" "Beauty" "Justice" which few can agree upon the definition of with no way to test who is right.

  I leave it to you as to which philosophy has given more practical benefit to mankind.

  Your brother's own values are hidden from himself! He is at the "effect" of things his (passive) thinking has caused!!

  This leads him to mistakenly assigned greater value to EMOTION as a means of informing us of truth than being rational!!

  This is the core of mysticism! (The source of knowledge comes from a mysterious source untestable by others.)

  We hide the process of taking in data (rumor, innuendo, folk mythology, hearsay, prejudice, canards) passively from ourselves because we ARE NOT ALERT to what we are being programmed by. How can we be alert? By paying attention and actively deciding based on conscious skepticism and analysis.

  Otherwise, we simply ------FEEL----our way through life and have to rationalize WHY we acted a certain way. This is backwards! We need to be rational FIRST and feel the result AFTERward.

  A computer program does not write itself. The end result of activating a program has been the intention of the programmer. An application launches the intended purpose of the programmer in achieving some result. If we activate a program and get a contrary result --WE HAVE BEEN HACKED by an outside virus.

  The same is true of allowing an outside influence (virus) to program our emotional values through being passive about what we hold to be true (our values).

  We get out of a system what we put in. (Garbage IN=Garbage OUT).

  Many people try to surf their way through life by refusing to take charge of their own values. The wave they catch is the involuntary emotional surge caused by (often hidden) values.

  Control your values and you identify each and every emotion you experience!

  Passively follow your emotions and you have to justify destructive behavior afterwards like a babbling idiot.
• 

  trevor

  Terry

  Over the last 5 years my brother (Plato) has become increasingly involved in Buddhism. This include belief in karma, spirit guides and so on. This has concerned me because he seemed to be surrendering his rationality and control over his emotions - while at the same time believing that he has more control and purpose than he had before.

  I have shared some of your insights with him and helped him to see the need to avoid accepting beliefs as facts. Your explanation of how our values control our emotions has proved most helpful to both him and myself.

  Your efforts on this board are appreciated by many. Of course it is expected that there will be clashes of ego and opinion at times but they are sometimes the most enjoyable and enlightening exchanges.

  Helping people to think for themselves and gain proper control of their lives is - well - almost altruistic!
• 

  Terry

  Trevor:

  Over the last 5 years my brother has become increasingly involved in Buddhism. This include belief in karma, spirit guides and so on.

  I can't say that I blame your brother for testing various modes of thinking. There is a buffet laid out by the greatest minds. Sampling the flavors makes sense.

  Some of the flavors are, it is true, empty calories and quite delicious!

  Let's face it; it is very hard work staying rational. It isn't natural. We've evolved our higher brain around a core of reptile brain which is hardcore irrationality. Unless we are vigilant that limbic core takes precedence. Separating the WANTS from the NEEDS keeps us straight. The only way to do that is to examine the values behind each and make certain our (differentia) definitions are consciously chosen.

  Thanks for your kind words, by the way!
• 

  DanTheMan

  Terry ou say that it's hard to stay rational because our brain is built upon a reptilian brain that is hardcore irrational.

  But, a reptile watches a fellow reptile die, does nothing to help it, and feels no guilt after.

  So by your logic it would seem that reptiles are more rational than humans...right?

  Life is the greatest value there is. Without life nothing else can be valued because (without it) there is nobody to value it. It follows that one's OWN life must have the greatest value because you must possess life to be able to sacrifice it in the first place.

  This is contradictory. If we constantly value our own life of above all else then we would never "sacrifice it in the first place".

  The social instincts that we possess that cause us to try to help others even when helping them presents a significant risk to our own life and limb, it seems to me that these instincts are an essential part of what makes us human, and that if you take these instincts away then we're back to being guiltless as lizards, would this be a good thing in your judgement?
• 

  Terry

  The limbic system (Latinlimbus: "border" or "edge") includes the structures in the human brain involved in emotion, motivation, and emotional association with memory. The limbic system influences the formation of memory by integrating emotional states with stored memories of physical sensations.

  The limbic system is biologically/evolutionarily an old part of the brain. Its management of fight or flight chemicals is an evolutionary necessity for lizards as well as modern humans.

  Limbic System
• 

  Terry

  But, a reptile watches a fellow reptile die, does nothing to help it, and feels no guilt after.

  So by your logic it would seem that reptiles are more rational than humans...right?

  I have no idea what you are talking about!

  Reptiles have no rational states of mind. A human can make choices modified by the depth of awareness of circumstances.

  What humanity possesses is the ability to over-ride the impulse to satisfy immediate cravings and postpone rewards for future benefit.

  The ideal "sacrifice" a human would make would amount to a trade-off for gain, not your stereotypical self-sacrifice for duty.
• 

  fifi40

  Dansk you asked for a simple explanation of how love evolved and IMHO it has happened something like this.

  At birth we need to be cared for, fed, kept clean, warm. To continue surviving we are in immediate need of connection with another human being. Mothers produce chemiclas/hormones which naturally lend to caring for their offspring. In healthy parent/child relationships this bond promotes a feeling of safety and of being cared for or the label we give it of being loved. This need is there from the moment we enter the world.

  Tetra explained well the premise of physical attraction and this guarantees the survival of the human race, and in fact all other creatures. At its origin, sex with another being creates life.

  As we have developed/evolved as humans we have started to label the basic need we are born with. To be intimate with another being.

  Often our life experience (and especially the formative years) mould the way in which we experience love. Hence a woman who has experienced a father beating her mother will often believe she loves a man who exhibits similar traits. If you are the offspring of parents who apparently loved each other, remained faithful and were 'loving' in their actions toward each other it is likely that you will seek the same. I understand the previous sentence is very general but it is meant only to illustrate.

  In summary, we are born with a basic instinct and need for intimacy and connection with another creature. The diversity we find in the world results, in part from, the diversity of that basic instinctual need being met and the labels we then give to it as we mature.

  Hoping this doesnt sound to simple

  Fifi
• 

  DanTheMan

  I have no idea what you are talking about!

  Reptiles have no rational states of mind. A human can make choices modified by the depth of awareness of circumstances.

  What humanity possesses is the ability to over-ride the impulse to satisfy immediate cravings and postpone rewards for future benefit.

  But the problem I see with your objections to altruistic behavior is that the underlying assumption seems to be that in a given situation, one can know for sure whether or not sacrificing oneself is a rational choice or not.

  For instance, let's say that I see a young boy in a life-threatening circumstance where I have the ability to help but only at a significant risk to myself.

  First of all, how can I know for certain that if I try to help that I will surely die?

  Second, if the boy is a stranger to me, how do I judge that my life is more worthy than his? For all I know, he could be a genius that, if he were to live to become and adult, will come up with some invention or cure for a disease that will be tremendously beneficial for future generations, including my own descendants and therefore aid in preserving my own genes.