LOVE, ALTRUISM & EVOLUTION

by Dansk 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Terry

  Prove that altruism is a "neurosis". Then, you will have successfully rebutted my comment that your statement is a sweeping generalization.

  Depending on what definition you accept for "neurosis" (behavior at odds with one's own self-interest) and how you choose to view "altrusim" (personal sacrifice in the interest of the group) you'll either agree with my conclusion or completely define it all away through alternate modalities.

  One of the problems some of the people on this board are having with my viewpoint is that they have detached contexts from specific definition and have attached warm and fuzzy connotations to these contexts without regard to reality.

  The core question is this: DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST FOR OUR OWN SAKE OR NOT? How you answer that question will decide how you feel about altruism.

  The philosophy behind altruism presents us with the view that SERVICE TO OTHERS IS THE ONLY JUSTIFICATION FOR OUR EXISTENCE. The ultimate result of this view is that self-sacrifice is the highest, noblest moral duty, value and virtue humanity can achieve.

  Primarily, this makes our very SELF evil and selfLESS the standard of good. Undoubtedly we can lay the influence of reliigon at the root of this reasoning.

  What follows logically from this position is that we mortgage ourselves to the NEED of other people. Only by filling their NEEDS are we able to be valuable.

  The problem with the above stems from failing to define the source of VALUE in the first place.

  Life is the greatest value there is. Without life nothing else can be valued because (without it) there is nobody to value it. It follows that one's OWN life must have the greatest value because you must possess life to be able to sacrifice it in the first place.

  If there were only two people on the Earth and neither person's life had value unless they sacrificed it for the other you'd quickly understand the arbitrary absurdity of the premise of altruism.

  Or, to put it even more simply: If you are selfish to possess something (life, money, happiness, anything) and must sacrifice it to the need of others THEN WHY aren't they selfish to accept those very things which made you selfish? Is it the "need" that keeps them pristine and virtuous? Once you've given everything away doesn't that automatically trigger a NEED in you? By playing to the "needs" of the "other" we create an identical "need" in ourselves through the deficit of sacrifice. It is illogical and absurd.

  I work hard for my money. I see a man who cannot work and needs money. I become virtuous by giving him my money. Two things occur. 1.He accepts my money and loses his need. 2.I lose my money and become needy.

  That is the black and white of it. If it sounds ridiculous; it is.

  We all have the same 24 hours in our day. We succeed by means of our efforts. Some of us have more talent, brains, ability and energy to spend achieving success in life. DO WE OWE anything to those less talented, less intelligent, we fewer abilities and lacking in energy and ambition? If, "yes"; explain WHY?

  Each of us should have the CHOICE of whether we give up something to aid another person without having our morality, ethics and personal worth called into question. Remove the social OBLIGATION to sacrifice and you have removed the coercive bludgeon which negates the heart of charity: Personal decision based on rational choices.

  How would you like it if everything you own was removed from you and "shared" with your neighbors without your having anything to say about it? This is what happened in the Russian Revolution to people of wealth and means. The "state" confiscated all personal items and the individual was abolished. Communism (socialist philosophy) made the world "equal" at the expense of millions of lives for the good of the poor working man. Instead of classes of wealthy and poor (according to ability) Soviet Russia became a classless society of everyone poor (according to need.)

  This is the kind of insanity that stems from the bankrupt philosophy of Altruism.
• 

  proplog2

  Terry:

  My mistake. I was thinking in terms of alturistic behavior. Altruism as a philosophy is as bankrupt as just about any -ism. Sorry to put you through the time consuming process of explaining all of that.

  But thanks for the effort. At least I know what you mean and our distance isn't far apart.

  See, you ended up doing something altruistic. You knew what you meant. I didn't. You must have spent an hour thinking about it. Another half hour writing it. For what. Not even a tall one at Starbucks.

  Thanks for clarifying.
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  bernadette

  I was thinking of altruism in terms of sharing, cooperating to attain a mutually beneficial goal, and helping others to help themselves to as much independence as they can manage in the short term, and with an eye on the long term good coming out of it for everybody.

  Buit Terry your post is a wake up call because it so easy - if one does not stop and think rationally, to become ensnared with half baked ideas through which we sabotage ourselves and allow damaging ideas to grow - the wts- that also damage those around us.

  So thank you Terry for taking the time to explain altruism as to its core definition.
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  Dansk

  Altruism = unselfish concern for others. Zoologically, this would be defined as behaviour of an animal that benefits another at its own expense.

  How's this? Some years back a man's dog was in the sea and started to get into difficulties. The man dived into the sea to rescue his dog but, sadly, both perished. Now, the man was very fond of his dog obviously - perhaps even loving it. I should know because, yes, I literally love my dogs. I don't love them in the same way I love my wife, of course, but love them nonetheless.

  Fact is, someone who lays down their life for their dog (or other animal or even a fellow human) does so without any benefit to himself, i.e. his DNA is not furthered. Therefore, what is the purpose of love? I mean erotic love. I am not convinced it has its roots in altruism, i.e. unselfish concern. Rather, I feel it transcends what we know about evolution. But, if we have evolved from apes, how did love come about?

  When one of my beloved dogs, a German Shepherd, had to be put to sleep I cried all the way home. My wife cried when I told her. We missed that dog for a long time and even now I cherish his photographs. Dogs become part of the family and we can view them like children.

  Presently, we have two border collies. One especially, Rosie, is highly intelligent. I am utterly convinced she loves Claire. Rosie is fond of me - but Claire is her favourite. I was the one who initially fed Rosie and took her for walks and trained her - but Claire has always been her favourite. Could it be a feminine thing, i.e. Rosie knowing I am male and Claire is female, like her?!

  Whatever, I am still fascinated by the fact that we humans can love someone so passionately and be preapred to lay down our lives for that person. I'd still like to know where such love comes from and, if it is a product of evolution, how it came about.

  Ian
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  Qcmbr

  Since I think traditional altruism can be seen in many species it can be safely inferred that it is vital but then we can see non-biological altruism (I think) when we see the hijacking of the altruism mechanism when risk is taken on behalf of a perceived enemy (diving in the sea to save a cherished dog is one thing but its something else if the dog being 'saved' just attacked you and will probablt turn on you once you get it to shore) - is this teh root of 'love your enemy'?
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  Terry

  My mistake. I was thinking in terms of alturistic behavior. Altruism as a philosophy is as bankrupt as just about any -ism. Sorry to put you through the time consuming process of explaining all of that.

  But thanks for the effort. At least I know what you mean and our distance isn't far apart.

  See, you ended up doing something altruistic. You knew what you meant. I didn't. You must have spent an hour thinking about it. Another half hour writing it. For what. Not even a tall one at Starbucks.

  Thanks for clarifying.

  You is a funny funny guy!
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  Terry

  For example, making deals with trustworthy reciprocal altruists and cutting off cheaters is a smart strategy.

  An excellent example of a strategy consciously made without moral obligation for the purpose of self-benefit which involves the exchange of one value for another!

  Thanks SNG!
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  Terry

  But Terry your post is a wake up call because it so easy - if one does not stop and think rationally, to become ensnared with half baked ideas through which we sabotage ourselves and allow damaging ideas to grow - the wts- that also damage those around us.

  So thank you Terry for taking the time to explain altruism as to its core definition.

  Well, thank you!

  We all have so much conditioning in our society to throw ourselves into the fire on behalf of those less fortunate it becomes a blank check for anyone claiming a NEED for just about any reason! This has not only grown from a pure philosophy of Altruism which enables the State to seize us in its collective power, but; it becomes a chain around our subconscious that can lead us into religious and social slavery IF WE DON'T REMAIN ALERT.

  The Watchtower Society is quite clever at pushing this button of Altruism.

  First, we are given the example (in the bible) of individuals who served themeselves (to a bitter end) and then given examples of those who SERVED (and were blessed) and are told to draw a lesson from it. The lesson is always the same, however: DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD WITHOUT QUESTION NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS YOU. The collective (The Group, the State, the Society) becomes the important entity we must sacrifice for: THE ORGANIZATION.

  The ORGANIZATION is an insidious cannibal collective demanding everything we have (even our life and the life of our children). We are constantly inculcated with the MORAL DUTY to give ourselves for it and serve its needs.

  Remember this: THERE IS NO ROOM FOR THE INDIVIDUAL OR HIS NEEDS under Altruism! The more you take care of yourself the less value you have. The more you diminish yourself of time, energy and resources the more valuable the collective is willing to view you.

  How many brothers and sisters ceased to be regarded as WORTHY when they started having "personal problems" in the Kingdom Hall? We've all seen the sudden cesation of good will when it US who has the need. We are viewed with suspicion and labeled "spiritually sick" when we pull back to solve our personal tragedy.

  The collective is a giant sucking machine that digest the individual and all he possesses.

  All of us should know that from first hand experience!

  By correctly identifying the PHILOSOPHY hiding behind the warm and fuzzy propaganda of Altruism we can see the danger lurking within and protect our minds from its irrational power to suck us in.
• 

  Terry

  Altruism = unselfish concern for others. Zoologically, this would be defined as behaviour of an animal that benefits another at its own expense.

  The Dog is an excellent example of a PACK ANIMAL.

  The PACK is the dog's version of the State or the Collective or The Society!

  There is a pecking order. Top Dog and all the rest.

  The dogs act as a collective pack under the leader: Top Dog.

  In a domesticated dog the Master is Top Dog.

  Only Top Dog gets to choose.

  This is a microcosm of Nature itself in many ways. The strong dominate the weak. The weak compromise individuality in order to survive socially and reap some benefits (i.e. whatever is left when the strong have satisfied their needs.)

  Humans follow a leader. Humans bow to the group, the collective in many tiers: (Family, Society, Religion, State, Service to God Almighty) in much the same way.

  The most important thing to consider is the utterly amazing lack of INDIVIDUALITY which remains when the collective rolls over groups of human beings and crushes the volition out of them.

  Many of the ills in society today come from people scrambling to pick up the pieces with faulty strategies such as going into debt, overusing credit, working too many jobs and overextending their public face in order to appease the demands of Altruism.

  The radical Muslims who blow themselves up are in the thrall of Altruism if you think deeply enough about the core philosophy behind their martyrdom.

  What is ISLAM? What does it mean? SUBMISSION!! To what or to whom? They will be told it is "Allah", however; it is always some collective with a leader calling the shots.

  "Greater love hath no man than when he LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE for that of a friend" is a familiar quote from our Bible.

  It is an outstanding slogan promoting Altruism!

  The soil of our planet is rich with the spilled blood of the victims of Altruism who followed blindly the leader demanding their lives for some "worthy cause" on a whim.

  After the death of the willing non-entity in "service" to the group--only then--is praise lavished on their memory and the noble words polished up and presented to the world: NOBLE, MORAL, UNSELFISH.
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  Dansk

  The Dog is an excellent example of a PACK ANIMAL.

  That's true, but man isn't necessarily. What makes a man sacrifice his life (unintentionally, I grant you) for the sake of his dog?! If it were the other way round one could argue "it's a pack thing."

  Many of the ills in society today come from people scrambling to pick up the pieces with faulty strategies such as going into debt, overusing credit, working too many jobs and overextending their public face in order to appease the demands of Altruism.

  I really don't see this as anything to do with altruism. Rather, the opposite - trying to be somebody, putting self first, craving after riches, etc.

  Besides, none of this answers my question as to how love developed.

  Ian