For All Former Elders

by Yizuman 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • Confession
    Confession

    Interesting thread. Good discussion.

    Obviously, no elder will appologize for DFing anyone who murdered, molested children...

    I'd like to pursue this. If what we're talking about is our former responsibility in having individuals shunned, would it matter what the sin/offense was? If having people shunned by their family and community is just plain wrong and evil, isn't the seriousness of their sin beside the point? Do we just say, "Oh well; they deserve it"?

    Like others have stated, I was one of those elders who looked for every POSSIBLE reason not to DF. I was only involved in one--and, yes, it was an elder found guilty of child molestation, with two accusers. He would not confess, so he was DFd.

    I really am interested in, for instance, what you would say about this one, Zarco.

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    This is one of those questions that is hard to answer without pi$&ing people off. If an ex-elder tries to put circumstances in perspective, he runs the risk of being attacked for being defensive. It's almost like the age-old debate about capital punishment: Some believe people who commit heinous crimes should be executed, others say society does not have the right to take a life, no matter what.

    If you believe there is no excuse, or authority, for disfellowshipping and that a judicial committee is immoral and illegal, then of course there is no person deserving of judgment. If you believe the JW judicial process was originally designed to "keep the congregation clean" and weed out bad guys who could do damage to "sheep," but then the process went awry and is now seriously flawed, you have another view.

    And both of those views exist in fairly equal parts on this Forum. You don't have to read many threads before you realize that opinion runs the gamut from "the WT Society is pure evil" to "it was great when it worked, but it stopped working."

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Zarco,

    The past is past. I apologize personally to you for my errors. I tried to follow my conscience as an elder and that's why I ended up here, with you. I was a fourth generation JW. I was brainwashed from the womb and still a kid when I was appointed as an elder. I did the best I could and I'm doing the best I can now to make amends. I say this not as an excuse but rather in the way of explanation. If it benefits you to hate me still, I'll understand.

    Love and respect,

    Nvr

    Willyloman,

    Thanks for your balanced and mature input.

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman

    I see that emotion runs high in this topic in regards to remembering the treatments that Elders have imposed in the congregation you may have attended.

    Remember, many Elders are victims of brainwashing just as those that are non-Elders. Even when an Elder acted in a zealous fashion, believing that he was doing the right thing all in the name of Jehovah.

    I realize that those from one side of the fence may see Elders acting in a unconsciencable manner, but that doesn't neccessarily make them bad. There are some I believe truly do have a very sensitive conscience and is sorry for what he has done, especially from those that left the Borg after discovering the real truth.

    When I say sorry, I mean for some that may have contributed to family break-ups (if any) or anything that may have caused harmfull effects on those that have become DFed and the effects to family & friends around them (such as the shunning effects, etc.).

    I don't believe all Elders are cold hearted, then again, I believe that ALL Elders are victims of the WTS just the same as regular jDubs are victims.

    There may be few that knows that the WTS is a cult, but doesn't care for he may like the power trip that he is on. Those I believe, are far few and in between.

    I know two people personally who are former Elders. Trying to get them to talk about their experiences as a former Elder was like trying to pull teeth from their mouths. None of them won't discuss it, as I can see ALOT of pain in their eyes as I can see their minds travel back in time to their former Elder days. From the looks of it, it wasn't pretty.

    Mouthy, I don't know if I will make it to PA this year or not. Since I am married now, my wife wants vacations on every wedding anniversary year, LOL! Guess one day I will if I can manage it. It'll happen, it's just a matter of when. :)

    Yiz

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Thanks for understanding Yiz.

    Nvr

  • zarco
    zarco

    Confession,

    Thanks for keeping young people safe from a molester.

    Possibly a better course would be to use the legal/judicial system to assure that the step to protect young ones is a permanent one at least the individual would be "marked" by being on a sex offender list and likely would spend a good deal of time in jail and in counseling.

    The reasons I think an apology is necessary for disfellowshipping is that a judicial committee is not sanctioned or even identified by any scriptural teaching. Rather when a disfellowshipping occurred the early Church/Congregation heard the evidence and made a decision. This accomplished much in that the Congregation was warned by hearing the evidence, the "sinner" had his/her day to present a defense and if the Congregation needed protecting it was a collective decision.

    When as elders we DF people for any sin, we are acting a judge with out training, we are involved in a process that is not sanctioned in scripture (judicial committe), we are forcing a set of consequences on the DF'd person that are for the most part man made.

    In cases were the physical well being of the Congregation is in danger, a legal solution is best rather than a JC.

    Zarco

  • zarco
    zarco

    willyloman -

    Thanks for your perspective. I guess mine is that the judicial committee does not have the authority to act. The congregation itself does have that authority and could rightly exercise it if it so choose to do so. A congregational action seems a principled approach since it allows a full disclosure and collective decision making.

    My reason for encouraging an apology is that I believe that repentance and conversion are required by a Christian and if one acted unscripturally by serving on a committee and disfellowshipping someone he must repent (regret) serving in that capacity and a conversion (reconciliation) with what God intends.

    Regarding being involved in an unscriptural process and having something good result out of it - like protecting the congregation from an abuser - does not make the process right nor does it prove to be the most effective process for protecting the congregation - a legal approach would be much more effective.

    zarco

  • zarco
    zarco

    nvr,

    I did not intend to make anyone feel guilty, we all make mistakes. I do not require any apology from you.

    I personally have not shunned anyone nor disfellowshipped anyone as it against my conscience. I would under all circumstances use the legal system if a case of child abuse or murder was involved. I realize that many elders followed their conscience when disfellowshipping abusers and the outcome was a good one. The process was a bad one. A legal/judicial solution would have been best.

    zarco

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24
    When as elders we DF's people for any sin, we are acting a judge with out training, we are involved in a process that is not sanctioned in scripture (judicial committe), we are forcing a set of consequences on the DF'd person that are for the most part man made.

    I think this is somelthing most if not all, recognize once outside. While inside though, all JW's follow the rules and those rules are made at the top by the Governing Body as Gods channel of communication. Elders are simply the middle men responsible for carrying out the rules - some do it by the book, others are more liberal and there are some that run from making any decision on their own, instead just going along for the ride. Many elders have been on so many judicial committee's over the years, that it's doubtful they could remember all the names or know where those members are now. Let's also be realistic . Most JW's, including many family members, cut off the df'd persons so completely, that they lose touch with them pretty fast - why waste time on the unworthy is the thinking? If all JW"s were really that intent on helping those df'd people or looked at them as real people...friends..family..loved ones...then they would not be able to toss them on the trash heap. They don't act differently, therefore to me, it might be an Elder body making the decision, but if the punishment were not being carried out by the rank and file, then the discipline would mean nothing. If we expect an Elder to apologize, then every single one of us who was at one time a JW would probably have to go out and start apologizing to the masses. Every door we knocked on we pushed a message that we believed in - and a doctrine that was false - because we had to. We should apologize to all of those people.

    We should apologize to every single person that we set out to save and drew into the 'truth'. By bringing them in, we quite possibly set them up for destruction in their lives..because as believers, we didn't explain the punishment and tragedy of shunning that they might be forced to endure if they even dared question what we taught them. We should apologize to every single 'worldly' person for our distrust and judgement toward them and the lack of respect we felt we did not owe them because our religion gave us superiority. The list could go on forever - we all had a job to do in the society - and we all did it.

    If we scream at them for making a decision based on a JC that shouldn't exist scripturally, then we may as well scream at them for promoting doctrine and lifestyle that also doesn't exist in every single talk they gave, we may as well persecute them for all the misplaced encouragment they gave to those who pioneered, all the glory and loyalty they handed over to the society without question. I'm not an Elder of course, and to me the JC is wrong, but I don't expect nor would I desire an apology from them. It's the men at the top who continue to brainwash all those underneath - who use them to do what they refuse to do and who in the end would save their own skin and no doubt put every elder on the sacrificial block to do so. I see the elder as just doing his job - its the organization as a whole and those at the top who have benefitted the most from the work everyone else has done. For me, the apology should come from them. sammieswife.

  • bernadette
    bernadette

    I agree with sammielee24. The organisation is to blame.

    My husband used to cry over disfellowshipping cases he'd sat on, and he'd very upset and unable to rest all night.

    bernadette

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