Mouthy, I don't know if I will make it to PA this year or not. Since I am married now, my wife wants vacations on every wedding anniversary year, LOL! Guess one day I will if I can manage it. It'll happen, it's just a matter of when. :)
WELL I missed that post Congratulations YIZ
For All Former Elders
by Yizuman 43 Replies latest jw friends
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mouthy
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sammielee24
The organisation is to blame
I think it's too easy to blame the elders....because they were the one's seen as in charge. The power they have is only as mighty as they have been given. The governing body sets the tone and everyone else is expected to follow - no matter what position you hold within the society. It isn't the elders who made up 1914. It isn't the elders that made up the blood doctrine. It isn't the elders that made up 1975. It isn't the elders that made up the shunning policy. It isn't even the elders that made up the judicial committee. To me, the watchtower society at the top, the ones handling the money, the ones making policies that keep people poor and brainwashed, the very men at the top whose only goal is to remain there and for whom no other JW actually exists - those are the men who owe millions of people an apology. I might get angry at the pompous, arrogance of an elder...but I don't blame him for my df'g. I blame (and that probably isn't even a suitable word) my family for allowing the false doctrine of shunning to separate and destroy the lives of all our families. If the governing body said tomorrow there was no shunning, then there would be no ruined lives hence the rage against an elder for meting out the disfelloshipping would have no merit. So, to me, we need to start at the top - they make the rules and the rest just follow. sammieswife.
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AuldSoul
For the record: While disfellowshipping a molester might keep the congregtion safe temporarily, the manner of discipline among JWs insures that the potential for further harm is always looming right over the horizon.
The veil of secrecy is a protection for the wrongdoer; they can simply wait and become a predator again. Since criminal prosecution of the offender is rare there is no public record made and the offender need not register with any agency charged with making the predatory history of offenders available to the public.
Forgetting all about the "two witnesses" rule, the method they use for disciplining molesters leaves the congregation at risk of future violation.
I was never an elder, but was the son of one who served on his first Judicial Committee at the age of 17. He is now 61 and serves as Presiding Overseer of a congregation in Albany, Georgia. 44 years as an elder is longer than most people are JWs.
Elders exercise authority the Bible does not grant them in ways the Bible directly counsels against. (1 Timothy 5:20) The Bible's recommended method is to protect the congregation from the wrongdoer, not to protect the wrongdoer from the congregation.
In my opinion, elders who followed the Governing Body's rules have much to apologize for as they cannot serve under the organization's rules without usurping—to some degree or other—the Scriptural relationship between the Father, the Son, and the individual. (1 Corinthians 11:3) Note: there is no place for an extra spiritual authority between Christ and the individual.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
bernadette
Sammieleeswife, just to clarify, when I wrote - the organisation is to blame - I meant to say the governing body are to blame. The elders are simply carrying out orders they have been indoctrinated to believe is coming from Jehovah through Jesus Christ. That's what they are reminded of again and again.
But with regard to child abuse and pedophiles - the society's policy ought to stop elders dead in their tracks and make them revaluate their position as elder.
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Doubting Bro
Interesting thread. One of the myriad of reasons why I stepped down was because I couldn't take being set up in a position as a judge. Zarco, I agree with your position that the JC practice is unscriptural but as an elder we all had to sit on them from time to time. When I was first made an elder, I avoided them for a few years. I just didn't think I could pass judgement on another "fellow worker". It just didn't feel right. In time, I saw my sitting on a JC as a protection for the friends since I still didn't fully agree with the way the DF'ing process worked and as another poster mentioned, under the official rules, it really should be a rare occurrence. However, the unofficial way things were handled in real life differs greatly from the official position. So, I felt an obligation to sit on as many as I could so that I could steer towards a private reproof. In all but one case, I suceeded. In that case, I was outvoted and the person seemed to want to leave. Even then, it haunted me and I refused to serve on any more.
I haven't contacted that person and maybe one day I'll have to courage to do so. Even though I voted to not DF, she still was and she probably doesn't realize I voted that way.
In my opinion, elders who followed the Governing Body's rules have much to apologize for as they cannot serve under the organization's rules without usurping—to some degree or other—the Scriptural relationship between the Father, the Son, and the individual.
Auld Soul, you are correct. Although I could use the excuse that I was raised in it and that I thought I was doing Gods will, the above fact does not change. And believe me, the talks I've given, the counsel I've dispensed, the judgements I've made about others spirituality as an elder bother me greatly. I am deeply sorry I allowed myself to be used in this way. I can't change the past, but I am determined not to ever be used this way again. I am sorry to all those that have gotten chewed up and treated harshly by the WTS system and I've sorry for my role in the machine.
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LennyinBluemont
I agree with the comments above. We all feel the same way about it now. But if you expect all former elders to go to every person that was DF'd on a committee they sat on, to be consistent, should you not also go to every person you ever shunned as part of that process and apologize? Should you not also go to every person you ever gave literature to, spoke with or studied with and apologize? Who is more guilty, the judge or the executioner? Yes, the elders made the judgment, but by shunning the one judged, you are the executioner. Will you rely on the Nuremburg defense? None of us feel good now about what we did then.
The problem is, you are removing the context, and now acting as judge yourself. Does that make you better? Surely you understand the power of the controlling indoctrination that made all of us do things, sometimes for decades of our lives, that we now regret. I'm sure that includes all of us as elders that sat on committees. We felt, we KNEW, in our heart of hearts, that we were doing God's will. That's what motivated us. It was our RESPONSIBILITY before God to protect the flock from harmful influences. No matter how much someone may wish to now judge us for our actions absent that context, it changes nothing. Even the courts of the land recognize that there are extenuating circumstances when a wife murders her husband after suffering years of physical and emotional abuse. Yes, elders suffered abuse too, especially at the hands of those in authority over THEM. I received my share of that and was wracked emotionally on many occasions. I don't expect apologies for any of that. What good would it do?
As for apologies, I personally contacted some I studied with, who I knew were not witnesses, and told them that I could no longer recommend that course, and shared with them some of the things I have learned. I have no way now to contact those that were judged on committees I sat on, but I have written a letter to all of our close former JW friends, putting ourselves on record as to how we now feel about the organization. I'm finished. You've got to put it behind you, people.
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sammielee24
But if you expect all former elders to go to every person that was DF'd on a committee they sat on, to be consistent, should you not also go to every person you ever shunned as part of that process and apologize? Should you not also go to every person you ever gave literature to, spoke with or studied with and apologize? Who is more guilty, the judge or the executioner? Yes, the elders made the judgment, but by shunning the one judged, you are the executioner
Bingo! That is exactly the point I was trying my best to get across. It is a collective activity and therefore, I could not expect any Elder to apologize to me personally without me personally going around and apologizing to everyone that I witnessed to and so we go around and around in circles.
Being a Jehovahs Witness means that you have no direct relationship with God as much as you like to think you do. Your allegiance is first and formost with the Watchtower which is why I can't reconcile myself to the fact that an Elder should somehow be more to blame for enforcing a doctrine than the governing body is for enacting it. As a Witness, your relationship is with the Watchtower. If you dare to question that authority, you suffer the consequences. By that note, all JW's are guilty of the same activity collectively. The question most of us have heard or posed is 'do you believe this is God's organization?'. If you answer no - well you are now a part of the world, so even if you say you still believe in God, you are just being fooled because the world is being run by Satan. If you answer 'yes'..well then you still believe that the Watchtower is God - thus you can only have a relationship with God by believing in the Watchtower. You only see the truth when you are out of the truth but being part of the society at any time, means that you do believe that God can only be reached by this link. Whatever you do while a witness is because you believe that God is telling you to do it - via the Watchtower.
In no way do I condone the rules that the Watchtower has set up and expects to be followed - such as the 2 witness rule or the issue of not identifying molesters within the organization. The law should always come first - there should be no question. sammieswife.
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Confession
Zarco, I appreciate your comments on a legal/judicial solution being best. But I'd like to ask again: Had you been an elder, would you contact a pedophile you voted to disfellowship and apologize?
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Yizuman
Confession wrote:Zarco, I appreciate your comments on a legal/judicial solution being best. But I'd like to ask again: Had you been an elder, would you contact a pedophile you voted to disfellowship and apologize?
Why should he/she receive an apology?
Same question should a murderer, rapist who were JWs that got voted to be disfellowshipped receive an apology as well?
I don't think that a pedophile should receive an apology, even though they may have been victims of a brainwashing cult like the WTS. But the second that they make a decision to victimize a child, he/she is no longer a victim, but a victimizer and receieves no sympathy from me.
Yiz -
avidbiblereader
Ironically I did sit on two cases that I ran into the people and apologized to both of them, I also had business dealings with a study that left too and apologized to her also.
abr