JW`s don`t say the Lords Prayer because the WBT$ dosen`t want them to..You will not find any mention of the WBT$ in the Lords Prayer..The WBT$ should be mentioned in all christian prayers.....Jehovah,thank you for your organization the WBT$ and the windowless buildings we pay for and they keep..Thank you for sending us out to peddle WBT$ literature that will be out of date tomorrow..Blah..Blah..Blah..LOL!!...OUTLAW
The Lord's prayer, why JW's never say it
by moomanchu 35 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Jringe01
If you say the "model prayer" over and over again then what does it mean? Where is the heartfelt expression?
When you thank a friend, collegue, family member who does somethign for you on a regular basis do you say the exact same thing each time? Of course not.
A prayer is an address to God. Like addressing a fellow human being it's not meant to be a mindless droning of words. We may well criticize the WTS for providing talk outlines but do you notice that the speakers never have a precise script they have to read verbatim?
In Market Research surveys there is an exact script to follow and if the company is doing it's job correctly then that script can never be deviated from for any reason and the way you conduct yourself is (should be) strictly regulated. However in my company we have now taken on a customer service tracker which requires interviewers to be more flexable, more human, warm, genuine etc and many cannot shake the old Market Research mentality thus when they talk to these customers they sound mechanical, cold and robotic. Hearing the Lord's Prayer recited over and over again with no change is cold, without feeling and mechanical.
Any idiot can chant the Lord's Prayer but not everyone can truely pray. Prayer is an expression of faith, a statement that says something about who you are and how you feel about your god. If all you can and/or want to do is recite that model prayer over and over again then what kind of relationship do you really have with the god you claim to believe in/worship. If everytime you saw your best friend, you had the exact same conversation each time what would that say about your relationship? It would be a gialnt flashing EMPTY sign as in nothing there, no foundation, no substance.
Don't you think that Jesus would have known that many in his time recited the same words when chanting/praying just as they do now? He was Jewish, he's know all about mantra's.
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Pubsinger
If you say the "model prayer" over and over again then what does it mean? Where is the heartfelt expression?
Bit of a generalisation there. Repetion equals insincere?? I'll remember that the next time my wife and kids tell me they love me. Hey they've told me ONCE so they must just be patronising me now
When you thank a friend, collegue, family member who does somethign for you on a regular basis do you say the exact same thing each time? Of course not.
Er . . . pretty much yes. How many different ways can you think of saying thank you without repetition? But that means it's insincere just because you've said it before?
Of course some people may be cold and token as you say.
But can you honestly say that it is TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE to use the Lord's Prayer repeatedly in a meaningful way over a prolonged amount of time?
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Narkissos
Jringe,
Your considerations about spontaneity reflect the spirit of your times. In the ancient religious mindset a deity was precisely not a human friend or relative. The gods were feared before they were loved. They had to be approached according to specific rules, sacrifices, offerings, mediations... and prayer was never everyday speech, but either literary poetry (and, often, song: think of the Psalms) or trance/ecstasy -- in any case, something else than "normal speech".
I grant you that the Lord's prayer is relatively simple (and this stress on simplicity and reducing the mediations is common to several contemporary Jewish schools, Essenes and Pharisees). But it is still poetry, indicative of attention to form and repetition.
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Narkissos
Do not repeat empty posts
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Narkissos
Do not repeat empty posts
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Who are you?
If you say the "model prayer" over and over again then what does it mean? Where is the heartfelt expression?
When you thank a friend, collegue, family member who does somethign for you on a regular basis do you say the exact same thing each time? Of course not.
Take for instance the expression "I love you"
A prayer is an address to God. Like addressing a fellow human being it's not meant to be a mindless droning of words. We may well criticize the WTS for providing talk outlines but do you notice that the speakers never have a precise script they have to read verbatim?
There is a difference between a public talk and a group prayer. In a public talk, the orator can gas away until the cows come home.
In Market Research surveys there is an exact script to follow and if the company is doing it's job correctly then that script can never be deviated from for any reason and the way you conduct yourself is (should be) strictly regulated. However in my company we have now taken on a customer service tracker which requires interviewers to be more flexable, more human, warm, genuine etc and many cannot shake the old Market Research mentality thus when they talk to these customers they sound mechanical, cold and robotic. Hearing the Lord's Prayer recited over and over again with no change is cold, without feeling and mechanical.
A telemarketing spiel is not the same as a group prayer. What was presented was a"model prayer" not a model on how to sell vaccuum cleaners.
Any idiot can chant the Lord's Prayer but not everyone can truely pray. Prayer is an expression of faith, a statement that says something about who you are and how you feel about your god.
When the "model prayer" is presented to you, and you decide that your "everybody look at me prayer" is better, that speaks volumes about you.
If all you can and/or want to do is recite that model prayer over and over again then what kind of relationship do you really have with the god you claim to believe in/worship.
This "model prayer" by virtue of the first word "our" indicates a "group prayer". What you do individually is another matter. If pontificating is your thing, then do it in private and don't hold everyone else hostage while you go on and on about your version of what God should do.
If everytime you saw your best friend, you had the exact same conversation each time what would that say about your relationship? It would be a gialnt flashing EMPTY sign as in nothing there, no foundation, no substance.
Once again, a greeting is not a group prayer. But for the sake of arguement, stop using the words "Hello" and "I love you". They are after all "model" expressions. To repeat them over and over again is meaningless.
The beauty of "The Lord's Prayer" is that it is short and sweet. I would much rather hear that prayer then some self-aggrandizing schmo go on and on for 10 minutes. Here's the kicker, if you are of the JW mindset.....if the speaker can't get his message across in 45 minutes, then an additional 10 minute prayer isn't going to make a difference. By reciting the "Lord's Prayer" then even if the speaker was a total schmo, the hour of torture will end on a high note.
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Who are you?
The other thing that is great about the "Lord's Prayer" is that it is gender neutral.....and any man, woman or child can recite it.
So you have a religion neutral and gender neutral prayer that can be recited by anyone of any age.....and you don't have to sit and watch the turkey get cold as someone gasses on about nothing....... I'd say that's a "model prayer".
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JWdaughter
Most prayers the JWs say are very repetitious. Same expressions, pretty much same prayer every time, with appropriate changes expressing appreciation for how well the WT did the latest assembly/KH build/watchtower study/new book. They are almost the same every time. I bet if someone were to tape them, they would find the same expressions constantly repeated, with much thanks given to the provision of the WT organization.
Personally, I think they don't do the Lords prayer for the same reason they don't do birthdays, vote, let their kids participate in normal kid things. . .because it sets them apart. They are BEYOND simple recited prayers. . .they are too good for what the rest of the world finds acceptable. They are QUITE above such things.
I think the Lords prayer is simple and meaningful to Christians. And for a whole group to share in, it can be beautiful-such as many prayers in the Jewish tradition which are done as a group. Just my opinion.
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NanaR
Regarding repetition in prayer:
Revelation 4:8 says of the four living creatures around God's throne in the heavens: (NRSV)
"Day and night without ceasing they sing, "Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty, who was and is and is to come."
Not only that, but the 10th and 11th verses indicate the use of responsive prayer:
"the twenty-four elders fall before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing, "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.""
Also, from my personal standpoint, I find that saying the "Our Father" or reading one of the Psalms (yes, they are prayers too) at the start of my prayer puts my mind and heart in communion with Holy matters. When I do this, I find that the remainder of my prayer for my own intentions is much more meaningful.
BTW, I was raised as a Witness in the 1950s. I learned the Our Father prayer at my mother's knee -- from a King James Version Bible. And when I was in 1st grade, my homeroom teacher had the entire class recite the Lord's Prayer first thing in the morning. My parents allowed me to participate so long as I did not add the part at the end that Witnesses believe was not original. In 2nd grade, my teacher had us recite Psalms 23 first thing in the morning, and I was allowed to do that also. I did not participate in the flag salute, but I DID pray in public.
I doubt that Witnesses today are permitted to do these things -- but life was different away back when. If it came directly from the Bible, it was okay no matter who was reading it or saying it.
NanaR