Im a bit confused on what your all saying about repeat prayers of the same thing but here is me. I was never a Jehovahs witness, but i respected them more than my family, I found myself in my bed announcing my prayers to jehovah god. What happened? prayers were not answered and I got worse doing meth "as i said in another thread awhile back" and one day, I announced my prayers to Jesus "I was not apart of a church nor did i ever go to one at that time" and I felt as if I was at peace and I felt as if something happy jumped in me and made me Joyful so I started going to church. My prayers at night are almost the same prayers, something like this "Lord please help me through life and fight the temptations of sexuality and fill that empty place within me that is empty and lonely and that I will be able to learn to fight sin the next time it comes around the corner" It helps me fight temptation, but that lonely empty place is still there . So if a JW wants to say im being possessed by a demon when something jumps in me full of joy, then they might as well be demons to ruin a good spiritual feeling that the bible inspires.
The Lord's prayer, why JW's never say it
by moomanchu 35 Replies latest watchtower bible
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blondie
Well, I don't like reciting the prayer...or any prayer. I don't like any kind of chanting whether it be musical or in the sports arena. I don't think Jesus meant it to be recited.
Blondie (not much of a joiner except on JWD where we can all be different)
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Jringe01
Model: A preliminary work or construction that serves as a plan from which a final product is to be made. One serving as an example to be imitated or compared. Here are some Synonyms: framework, simulation, example, pattern, mold and mock up. Some related words are " possibility, representation, ideal, microcosm, epitome, prototype, archetype, pilot, image and template.
Now to address some of of the thoughts offered about my previous post. I just want to make sure everyone understands the points I am trying to make because apparently there was some misunderstanding.
If you say the "model prayer" over and over again then what does it mean? Where is the heartfelt expression?
Bit of a generalisation there. Repetion equals insincere?? I'll remember that the next time my wife and kids tell me they love me. Hey they've told me ONCE so they must just be patronising me now
There are many many different ways of saying thank you, showing love and appreciation and not all of them are verbal. They are limited only by your imagination. Remember that in a face to face conversation tonality and body language are what convey your message. Words are weak communicators because they are left up to interpretation. This is why people often get into e-mail wars at the office because in that medium you can't convey tone and body language so it's all too easy to misinterpret. Don't ask how I know that.
Now lets say that everytime your wife/husband/partner said "I love you" they said it in exactly the same tone (with little to no vocal variety) and with exactly the same body language how long would it take you to doubt their words? You see when we look at someone telling us "I love you" or saying "Hello" it's the difference in settings, the different tone, the variety in pitch, their body language that really tells us what they are saying.
Example: You bump into an old friend on the street. The last time you saw this friend you had a bit of a tiff. Senario A: Your friend looks at you, smiles, walks over to you, clasps you warmly on the arm and says "Hello. How are you?" Senario B: Your friend looks at you, remains aloof, makes no effort to bridge the distance between you, does not smile and says in a monotone says "Hello. How are you?. In which senario is your friend truely glad to see you? In both senario's the words were exactly the same but as you can tell from the tone and body language they don't mean the same thing.
In my youth (before my stint in the JW) I was present in many public gatherings and saw many more on TV where the Lord's prayer was recited. As a youth I had quite the interest in god however after so many times of hearing that same prayer being recited in that same monotone, the same words over and over again I got to the point of yawning and rolling my eyes. It was like a WT study..it was BORING! Boring as hell! There is nothing to think about for you don't have to think to recite those same words over and over again.
Now at the risk of being shot I do have to give a little bit of credit to JW's. I'm sure I'm not alone in this, especially when i was first comming into the "faith". There were from time to time prayers offered that provoked some sort of reaction in me. Be it an emotional or logical response there was something in those words, in the tone of the brother's voice that made me think, made me react in some way.
In the ancient religious mindset a deity was precisely not a human friend or relative. The gods were feared before they were loved.
David proved to be an exception then for his words in the Psalms proved that he loved his God before he feared him. His prayers are his thoughts and feelings poured out in the way he knew best, song. His words in prayer can provoke a reaction in us, they make us think. David never repeated the exact same words over and over again (come to think of it apparently Jesus didn't either and he originated the model). Each prayer was a glimpse into his thoughts and emotions. THAT"S how prayer should be.
Any idiot can chant the Lord's Prayer but not everyone can truely pray. Prayer is an expression of faith, a statement that says something about who you are and how you feel about your god.
When the "model prayer" is presented to you, and you decide that your "everybody look at me prayer" is better, that speaks volumes about you.
This statement presumes an arrogance that is not present. Beware your presumptions. I never once said that prayers other than the Lord's model are better and no where did I suggest that it should never be used. If you felt that I was suggesting this then why didn't you ask instead of blatently assuming? My issue is with only using the model, with only saying those same words over and over again. Also just because people have abused the privledge doesn't mean that all do. Not everyone who offers a public prayer is doing so in the hopes he can make himself stand out or seem more righteous. Sorry.
A prayer is an address to God. Like addressing a fellow human being it's not meant to be a mindless droning of words. We may well criticize the WTS for providing talk outlines but do you notice that the speakers never have a precise script they have to read verbatim?
There is a difference between a public talk and a group prayer. In a public talk, the orator can gas away until the cows come home.
Technically no, a prayer and a public talk are the same in that both have outlines. However that was NOT the point being made. The point is "the speakers never have a precise script they have to read verbatim" When all you do is recite the Lord's model that's what you are doing, reciting a script verbatim (verbatim meaning word for word). The statement was made specifically to emphasize the fact that when you're talking to somebody you almost never read from a prepared script (unless you are interviewing them).
If all you can and/or want to do is recite that model prayer over and over again then what kind of relationship do you really have with the god you claim to believe in/worship.
This "model prayer" by virtue of the first word "our" indicates a "group prayer". What you do individually is another matter. If pontificating is your thing, then do it in private and don't hold everyone else hostage while you go on and on about your version of what God should do.
Again sir/madam you assume an arrogance where there is none and you appear to display a rather arrogant attitude of your own, based on the tone of your words. I could be wrong though (see above) (LOl) It has to be noted that this seemingly snide remark does not answer the question posed.
If everytime you saw your best friend, you had the exact same conversation each time what would that say about your relationship? It would be a gialnt flashing EMPTY sign as in nothing there, no foundation, no substance.
Once again, a greeting is not a group prayer. But for the sake of arguement, stop using the words "Hello" and "I love you". They are after all "model" expressions. To repeat them over and over again is meaningless.
I'm sorry but the assertion that "hello" and "I love you" are model expressions is inaccurate. See definition of model above. As well not everyone says only these expressions. As with saying "Thank you" there are many differnt ways to convey these thoughts and not all of them are verbal. Remember that when using these expressions it's your tonality and body language that convey the true intent of your words. Yes a greeting is not a group prayer but that's not the point being made and the poster's comment, again does not answer the question. The question says "If everytime you saw your best friend, you had the exact same conversation each time what would that say about your relationship?" I used the word cnversation, not greeting. Having a conversation with God or a friend (it doesn't matter who) if all you had to say each time was the same thing as the last time with no variation then what does that say about your relationship? What kind of relationship can any one person or group of people hope to have with a God (or another person/group of people) if they never have anything new to say? How can such a relationship grow and prosper?
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...
on and on and on and on and on and on and on.............
Get the drift?
One last point to cover:
In Market Research surveys there is an exact script to follow and if the company is doing it's job correctly then that script can never be deviated from for any reason and the way you conduct yourself is (should be) strictly regulated. However in my company we have now taken on a customer service tracker which requires interviewers to be more flexable, more human, warm, genuine etc and many cannot shake the old Market Research mentality thus when they talk to these customers they sound mechanical, cold and robotic. Hearing the Lord's Prayer recited over and over again with no change is cold, without feeling and mechanical.
A telemarketing spiel is not the same as a group prayer. What was presented was a"model prayer" not a model on how to sell vaccuum cleaners
Again this poor poster just doesn't get it. This was being offered as an example to illustrate how saying the same thing over and over again sounds cold, robotic and mechanical: "In Market Research surveys there is an exact script to follow and if the company is doing it's job correctly then that script can never be deviated from for any reason and the way you conduct yourself is (should be) strictly regulated. However in my company we have now taken on a customer service tracker which requires interviewers to be more flexable, more human, warm, genuine etc and many cannot shake the old Market Research mentalitythus when they talk to these customers they sound mechanical, cold and robotic. Hearing the Lord's Prayer recited over and over again with no change is cold, without feeling and mechanical."
Point of order: Market Research is NOT Telemarketing no matter what the poster thinks. It's true that telemarketers will use surveys to beguilee people into buying things but a true Market Research survey NEVER ATTEMPTS TO SELL YOU ANYTHING AT ANY TIME, EVER!!!!!.Having been in this business for 5 years I know what i'm talking about.
Anyway that's my two cents worth.
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Who are you?
Jringe01
If you are a pontificator and self aggrandizer, then the "Lord's Prayer" isn't for you.
In the end that's really what it comes down to......the JW mindset does't like sharing the spotlight with anyone.
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Who are you?
Any idiot can chant the Lord's Prayer but not everyone can truely pray.
.....only a self aggrandizing individual would state that doing so is not truely praying.
This is what makes the JW mindset so unique....a total and complete lack of humility coupled with delusions of grandeur.
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Narkissos
Jringe,
You seem to infer a lot from the common English designation "model prayer" -- I'm not sure how old it is, let alone who first came up with it, but it is not in the NT and is absent from mainstream French tradition (I never heard anybody but JWs calling it "prière modèle," although I suspect the notion of "model" may be used by Evangelical groups which similarly avoid repeating it).
The fact is that the Lord's prayer was repeated in the 1st century (see my quotation of the Didachè above); and although its forms varied according to the different Christian churches (for the lack of any central authority) it was clearly a fixed form in each of them.
You also seem to have missed my point about poetry. Poetry is the opposite of spontaneous expression as it involves a special, conscious attention to form (semantical and phonetical construction, if only rhythm) which only cristallises through oral repetition and/or writing. To take a rather extreme but easily understandable example, nobody can mistake the construction of an alphabetical Psalm (e.g. 119), where each verse begins with a different letter in the alphabetical order, for the mere random spontaneous expression of the author's feelings.
The Matthean version of the Lord's prayer also has a simple but clear formal construction (which is even more apparent in Aramaic than in Greek; the Greek Matthean text breaks it, for instance, by introducing a difference of number in "heaven[s]" which is impossible in Aramaic).
I would add that if the Gospel Jesus meant it not to be repeated (contrary to the whole contemporary tradition) he was begging for misunderstanding. He should have said, "when you pray, say something like that but not that!"
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Who are you?
My issue is with only using the model, with only saying those same words over and over again.
Wow...you could have saved a few trees by just stating that.
If the culmination of your life experiences up until this point in life is based on the teachings of the WTS and what you have read in the Watchtowers and Awakes, then I would expect you to have this view.
If you have been a citizen of the world and rubbed shoulders with many people from many religions and have had the occasions to have many a group prayer, then you might view the "Lord's Prayer" a little differently. It all depends on your life experience.
There are entire books written about the "Lord's Prayer". If it works for other people why are you so quick to judge? What difference does it make to you?
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moomanchu
I never once said that prayers other than the Lord's model are better and no where did I suggest that it should never be used. If you felt that I was suggesting this then why didn't you ask instead of blatently assuming?
If all you can and/or want to do is recite that model prayer over and over again then what kind of relationship do you really have with the god you claim to believe in/worship. If everytime you saw your best friend, you had the exact same conversation each time what would that say about your relationship? It would be a gialnt flashing EMPTY sign as in nothing there, no foundation, no substance.
You know Brooklyn could use your skills, that's pretty good.
My issue is with only using the model, with only saying those same words over and over again.
Did you read the subject of this thread?
I don't think anyone who posted , even suggested that one should only be using the "model" prayer in praying.
Luke 11:2 - He said to them "when you pray say" Father hallowed be your name................
What to do, What to do
Jesus says "say this.........."
Watchtower says "do not say that........."
Jesus - Watchtower Jesus - Watchtower Jesus - Watchtower
What to do, What to do,What to do, What to do
I think i'm going with Jesus on this, Yeah, I think that's what I'll do.
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UpAndAtom
Live as you pray.
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Sasha
The point is, NOT to say it. It is a mdel prayer: For example, and this is personal.
First of all the scripture says: in Matt. 6:9-Our father in the heavens, let you're name be sanctified,( or Hallowed be thy name) if thats in you're bible.
When I pray, I say "either Dear heavenly father, or Dear Jehovah God (Been adressing him as Jehovah since I was 18 and am 57 now, old habits are hard to break) not that I care to break this one. I usually start by thanking him for all I have, the beautiful day, a comfortable bed and roof over my head, the nature so beautiful. Thanking him for the food I have to eat, and to forgive my sins.. I ask to be a better person and able to forgive my neighbors, friends (Hard for me to do, not ask, but forgive). I ask him to keep the evil of Satan away from me and mine and not to let him draw me into temptation. Then I always thank him and pray to him in Jesus's name. GET THE MODEL PART NOW?