by BFD 142 Replies latest watchtower bible
I'm feeling sort of agnostic at the moment. Having said that, I'd still like to throw my 2 cents into the jar.
IMO One cannot read the NT without feeling some degree of confusion about who is God/Savior/Lord/Alpha & Omega/ etc. It's so hazy, that this ambiguity prompted thousands of Arians and trinitarians to take turns massacring one another during the early history of the church. In most bloody and gruesome fashion I might add.
Nvr
Massacre?
Massacre?
Absolutely LT. I was as surprised as you when I read about it. Check out the book God against the Gods(can't remember the author at the moment) for historical verification. I'll dig for some hard info. on this and report back soon.
In the meantime, I'd like to express my joy and best wishes to you and your lovely wife-to-be.
Here's info on the book.
Today the dominant religions in the world are monotheistic: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. At one time, though, the dominant religions in the world were polytheistic and only Hinduism remains to carry on any sort of explicitly polytheistic tradition. How did this dramatic shift occur and what has it meant for western culture?
Title: God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism
Author: Jonathan KirschPublisher: Viking Compass
ISBN: 0670032867
Pro:
• Engaging book that tells history from the perspective of those who lived it
• Shows how the fate of the world can be altered by the life of a single person
• Argues that monotheism has been a hinderance to religious liberty and freedom of conscience
Con:
• None
Description:
• History of the triumph of monotheism over polytheism in the West
• Focuses on the success of Constantine the Great and failure of Julian the Apostate
• Argues that had Julian lived, polytheism would have returned as well as greater religious tolerance
...this ambiguity prompted thousands of Arians and trinitarians to take turns massacring one another during the early history of the church. In most bloody and gruesome fashion I might add.
I'm interested in early supporting evidence for this.
I'm aware of later crusades, but to my knowledge the early church battled more with words than swords...
Until I found JWD 31 years later Has it been going that long???
I believe the Trinity after being taught by the WT it was a lie. Dont have to explain it -because if you really do want to know & ask the HOLY SPIRIT HE will teach you it
...this ambiguity prompted thousands of Arians and trinitarians to take turns massacring one another during the early history of the church. In most bloody and gruesome fashion I might add.I'm interested in early supporting evidence for this.
I'm aware of later crusades, but to my knowledge the early church battled more with words than swords...
LT. I totally get where you are coming from. Unfortunately, my copy of the book is lent out to an old friend(you know who you are if you're readin' this bud - now I blew my cover) at the moment, and I'm unable to give specifics. In general terms, the idea was that the Arians both suffered and instigated invasions of homes and towns in which many lives were lost. I found this to be of great significance, because the WT view would have one believe that the Arians were closest to doctrinal "truth" and therefore the persecuted "innocents". Apparently this was not the case. Again I apologize for the lack of hard facts at this time.
Maybe Leolaia knows something to corroborate or refute?
In Phil. 2:5-11 we see that Jesus emptied himself of something he already possessed when he became a man. Anyone have any idea what that might be? Did he get back what he gave up? (See John 17:5) Or more? Is this telling us that his humanity has been exalted to a superior position and that is why at the name of Jesus every knee will bend and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord?
In Matt. 28:18 Jesus says all authority in heaven and earth was given to him. Was this authority given to him from all eternity? Do Father and Son both equally have authority? Or has the Father relinquished his authority to the Son? If Jesus only received his authority since his resurrection, why do Scriptures depict him as having authority even as a man? See Matt. 7:29; Luke 4:36; Mark 1:27
Lastly, why does 1 Cor. 15:20-28 depict Christ's subjection to the Father as something future, rather than past or now? Does subjection imply that they are not of the same nature, that Jesus at the end will be somehow less God than the Father? After all, wives are told to be in subjection to their husbands, but does that mean that the wife is less human than her husband? See Col. 3:18
I'm looking at 1John 5:7-8 and the NWT has it that the 3 witnesses are fire, blood and water , and all 3 are in agreement . Nothing about father, son and hoy spirit there.
LT -- I ask you , What are the odds that some scripture was tampered with or mis translated over the many times the bible has been re written? For a trinitarian to make that dogma stick requires alot more tampering via interpretation . I do see the unitarian approach but unlike unitarians or jws don't see the problem of calling jesus God since the bible puts it that way in all translations but there are 2 Gods , The sovereign lord YHVH God Almighty and Jesus God also called Mighty God .
Heathen:I agree that the verse in 1 John is disreputable, but I wouldn't be using a NWT if you paid me...
I take no issue with your Unitarian views. As I stated earlier, I think that focussing on the minutea of doctrine is a distraction from what its all supposed to be about. If God really cared so much He would have abandoned everyone that didn't have it perfectly right. Instead it appears that whatever walk of life, part of the world you come from, church or creed, it is possible to enjoy spirituality.
The doctrine of God attempts to describe something that (as JamesThomas keeps reminding us) is indescribable. Our best efforts are going to be failures, regardless of whether we call ourselves Unitarian, Binitarian, Trinitarian, Polytheist, Deist, Pantheist, Panentheist, etc., etc.
All the Trinity doctrine attempts to do is:
It is in this final step that you baulk and instead use a method of grading your Gods into seniority, so that the verse about there being only one God applies only to the Father. I would posit that ultimately we are both wrong, because God is indescribable. Meanwhile we argue about how many angels are on the head of a pin, in an attempt to make a little sense of an ancient text. Its a fun hobby, though, as long as noone loses an eye.
Hey, am I finally going to get to meet you in May??!!!
