Trinity?

by BFD 142 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe, thank you for your reply.
Here are the verses that I based my statements on when I said that in order to be saved you must believe in the truth of the Scriptures, and that you must believe & trust in the TRUE Jesus Christ to be saved, and you cannot have God's love inside of you until you have been born again by the Holy Spirit:
1 Peter 1:22-25 (ESV): Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever." And this word is the good news that was preached to you.
My comments: Once you are born again, then you will have the sincere Godly love for your brothers, not before. Also, Peter said that people are born again through the living and abiding Word of God and this Word is the Good News (Gospel) that was preached by the Apostles.
A question for you: Can you be saved without believing in the truth of the Good News (Gospel) that was preached by the Apostles? (See Galatians 1:6-9)
And, surely when the Apostles taught this truth of the Good News, this is what they taught:
All men are sinners, who cannot save themselves by any good works, that God The Father loved the world so much that He sent His Only-Begotten Son to the earth, and that Jesus was The Son of God and God, who became flesh to suffer, die, and shed His blood for our sins and was buried and rose again on the third day and was taken up to heaven where He sits at God's right hand, and He is our Lord, Savior, Mediator, and High Priest, and that we must turn from our sins (repent) and we are saved only by grace through faith in Him and His sacrifice, and by trusting in Him and calling on His Name, and once that happens then we are born again and washed from our sins by The Holy Spirit who then dwells in our hearts.
That Gospel is pretty straightforward and simple isn't it? That is what is required to be saved. No extremely complex set of theology. No "in-depth" understanding of all of the details. No deep revelation about how the Trinity could exist or the exact details of the relationship between The Father, The Son, and The Spirit. After you are born again, God's Spirit leads you into all truth, more and more progressively.
2 John 1:1-11 (ESV): The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth, because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever: Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love. I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth,just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady--not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning--that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
My comments: John said we should love each other in truth, and that the truth abides in us forever. He also said Christians should be walking in the truth because The Father commands it. John said that love is walking in God's commandments. John said that anyone who does not teach the truth about Jesus Christ, The Son of God, does not have God. He said that anyone who denies the truth about Jesus is a deceiver and an antichrist. Whoever abides in the true teaching about Jesus has both The Father and The Son. John then said that we should not even greet or welcome anyone who teaches falsehoods about Jesus Christ, because then we would be sharing in their sins.
1 John 5:10-13 (ESV): Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
My comments: The reality is that Jesus is God and The Son of God, however, this fact does not save you. John says that BELIEVING and TRUSTING in the true Jesus as The Only-Begotten Son of God is what is required to receive eternal life and the new birth.
1 John 2:4-6 (ESV): Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
My comment: If a person does not abide in God's Word, and if the truth is not in him, he is a liar, and he does not have God's love perfected in him.
1 John 3:14 (ESV): We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.
1 John 4:7-10 (ESV): Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
My comments: God's true love springs from the new birth by The Holy Spirit. If a person has God's love in them, this is a definite way to know that this person has already been born again and has passed from death to life, because a person cannot have this type of love without receiving the new birth. We only love because God loved us first.
1 John 4:15-16 (ESV): Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
My comments: Notice that John says that we have to confess that Jesus is The Son of God to abide in God, and THEN we come to know and to believe the love of God.
2 Timothy 3:14-17 (ESV): But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings,which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Mark 12:24 (ESV): Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
Luke 24:27 (ESV): And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:45 (ESV): Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Matthew 4:4 (ESV): But he answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe (LT), I apologize for the delay in replying to you.
LittleToe said:
"Whether Unitarianism or Trinitarianism is correct is irrelevant as there will be believers and detractors on one side or the other. It divides, instead of unites. My point? Merely that there are more important issues than continuing 1600 year old squabbles"
Then, I asked you this:
"So, are you saying that the truth about who God is, is just a "squabble" that's not very important? Are you saying we shouldn't worry that much about it because it divides us instead of unites us?"
To which you responded by saying:
"That's exactly what I'm saying."
LittleToe also said:
"Before I begin let me assure you that the context of my comments is the fact that BFD, who started this thread, is a "lamb" in faith. Re-read his first post to see why I am so defensive regarding this topic in this particular thread. You know from our previous discussions that I am more than able to support the Trinity doctrine and value its importance."
My response.
There is a big difference between saying that "an in-depth understanding of the Trinity" is not required for salvation (which I agree with), and saying that it is "irrelevant" and not very important whether a person believes in Unitarianism or not.
That is an extremely dangerous thing to teach, especially to new "lambs" in faith. I have not said that believing the Trinity doctrine is required for salvation, but I have taught, and will always teach the truth that Jesus Christ Himself taught -- you must believe the TRUTH about WHO Jesus really is in order to be saved.
Unitarianism teaches that God is only One Person -- The Father. It outright denies that Jesus is God (The Deity of Christ), just like the Watchtower Society does. Jesus Himself said that you CANNOT be saved if you deny His true identity as God. I am not making this up. Look at Christ's own words in the Gospels:
John 8:24-25, 31-32, 58
(ESV): I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." So they said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. [...] So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." [...] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Or, according to the New Living Translation and New International Version, in John 8:24, Jesus said: "Unless you believe that I am the One that I claim to be, you will die in your sins." The actual Greek text of John 8:24 simply says "I AM."
Jesus said that in order to have our sins forgiven, we have to believe the TRUTH about His identity. Unless you believe in the truth about WHO Jesus is, you will go to Hell. That is what Jesus taught. That is what John taught. That is what Paul taught. That is why Jesus asked His Apostles, "Who do you say that I am?" If it is "irrelevant" and not very important, why would Jesus ask His Apostles that question?
Matthew 16:13-19
(ESV): Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
When Jesus healed a man, and He found that man later, why did Jesus ask the man if he believed in The Son of Man?

John 9:35-38
(ESV): Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?" Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you." He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
For something that is "irrelevant" and not very important, Jesus sure made a BIG DEAL out His true identity.
Jesus taught that Unitarians are going to Hell, but LittleToe, you are teaching "lambs" in the faith that it is not important, basically, you said it doesn't matter whether you believe that Jesus is God -- you can still be saved.
LittleToe, I challenge you to show me any verses of the New Testament that teach that you can be saved while believing that Jesus is NOT God.
According to the Bible, should Christians desire to have "unity" with those who deny the truth about Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (ESV):
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."
2 John 1:7-11 (ESV):
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Also, what difference does it make how long people have argued about whether Jesus is God? (i.e. "1600 years") Paul taught that Satan would always have his agents in the church masquerading as ministers of righteousness, and that they will try to deceive people. The truth is always the truth. Truth does not change. Whether or not we believe it, it stays the same, 1600 years or 16,000 years.
People have been debating whether you are saved by grace through faith or by works for at least around 2,000 years. People have disagreed and argued about whether Yahweh, the God of the Jews, is the Only True God for much longer than that. People have argued over whether the Scriptures are inspired for several thousands of years. I fail to see how it matters how long people have been arguing over something.
Are you saying there's a certain time limit when truth no longer matters because people have debated about it too long?
LittleToe said:
However: To know Christ is to know "the truth", who sets you free. The Bible is a book that needs interpreting. It is not "truth" perse. It has words of truth contained within it, but most importantly it leads us to the one who is described as "the truth". That is a significant difference from applying that title to a book or an organisation. To do such, IMHO, is blasphemy."
Can you "know" someone without knowing WHO they are or WHAT they have done? Which Greek word was used in John 17:3 for "KNOW"?
So, in your opinion, calling the Bible "the Truth" is blasphemy? Was Jesus a blasphemer? Look what the Lord said:
John 17:17
(ESV): Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Matthew 4:4
(ESV): But he answered, "It is written,"'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Mar 14:21
(ESV): For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, ...
Luke 10:26
(ESV): He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?"
John 5:46-47 (ESV):
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"
Luke 24:44-47
(ESV): Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
The Apostle Paul also called the Scriptures The Word of TRUTH that have been GOD-BREATHED:
2 Timothy 2:15
(ESV): Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
2 Timothy 3:14-17
(ESV): But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
I do agree with you though that studying the Bible alone (without coming to Jesus) will never save anyone, as Jesus Himself said:

John 5:39-40
(ESV): You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
LittleToe said:
"You're mixing your metaphors, and corrupting your theology. On the one hand you are discussing an "understanding" and on the other the reality of the nature of God. Please keep your thoughts distinct and in order, please. Gawd almighty, not a wonder so much heresy has come from the USA. Regardless of who you understand Christ to be, if it is Christ that actually saves you then you are saved indeed, correct? "I believe, help thou my unbelief" "
I was not "mixing" or "corrupting" my theology. As I said before, the reality is that Jesus is God. But how does that reality alone save anyone? The reality also is that Jesus died for sins on the cross, but does that reality save us if we do not come to Jesus for salvation?
The reality is that Jesus will one day judge everyone, and everyone will have to acknowledge the reality that Jesus Christ is LORD. Unfortunately, for those who did not acknowledge this before they died, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Will Jesus save you if you do not believe the truth about Him -- about who He is and what He has done for you?
Jesus made it EXTREMELY clear that no one can be saved without BELIEVING THE TRUTH about Him, about WHO He is, and WHAT He has done for us:
John 1:12
(ESV): But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
John 3:14-18
(ESV): And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:35-36
(ESV): The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 5:37-38
(ESV): And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen,and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.
John 6:28-29
(ESV): Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
John 6:40
(ESV): For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47-48
(ESV): Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.I am the bread of life.
John 8:24
(ESV): I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 11:25-27
(ESV): Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."
John 12:36
(ESV): While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." ...
John 12:44-45
(ESV): And Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
John 14:1
(ESV): "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
So, according to Jesus Christ, can a person be saved without BELIEVING the truth about WHO Jesus is, and WHAT He has done for them? If you say yes, please provide sufficient Scriptural proof.
It should also be pointed out that you mixed up your theology by saying first it's "irrelevant" and not very important whether you believe in Unitarianism, and then claiming that you were only trying to say that it was not important to have an in-depth understanding of the Trinity for salvation.
LittleToe said:
"The simplicity of faith doesn't include an indepth understanding of the Trinity. If you say it does then I'll condemn you for putting a stumbing block in front of the brethren"
I agree about the "in-depth understanding" part. You almost accused me of putting a stumbling block before the brethren, but, at the same time, you are teaching a new "lamb" in the faith that it does not matter if you deny that Jesus is God, you can still be saved even if you are a Unitarian that denies the Deity of Christ. Who is the one that could be accused of stumbling the brethren?
LittleToe said:
"You haven't a clue what John had in mind, and he's been dead for 1900 years and wasn't the most profuse of writers."
So, are you saying that it's just me that has no clue about what John meant, or are you saying that everyone has no clue about what John meant? Is it only the verses about "The Son of God" that we don't have a clue on, or is it also other verses in the Gospel of John or the entire Gospel of John? Also, if that's true, then couldn't the same thing be said about Paul's writings and Jesus' teachings? Does no one have any clue what any of the Scriptures mean?
LittleToe said:
"He never used the statement "Very God of Very God". If he had it might have cleared a few things up. I'm a Trinitarian, as yourself, but I know that I didn't believe it when I was converted - it came later as I believe my mind was enlightened on scripture - my starting point was simply acknowledging that Jesus was far more than I had been raised with as a JW and a growing desire to pray to him."
Jehovah's Witnesses are Unitarian -- they believe only The Father is God, and that Jesus is a lesser, inferior, creature. You said that you were not converted until you began to acknowledge that Jesus was far more than the Unitarian Jesus taught by the Watchtower Society and you had a desire to pray to Jesus, which most Unitarians teach is unacceptable idolatry.
So, how can you say that it is "irrelevant" and not very important whether you believe in Unitarianism, when you yourself said that you were not converted until AFTER you started believing that Jesus was MUCH MORE than the Unitarian version?
Why were you not converted WHILE you believed in the Unitarian version of Jesus that the JW's taught? Can a person be converted WHILE still believing in the Unitarian version of Jesus? Can a person be saved without coming to Jesus and calling on His Name and praying to Him? Even the thief on the cross prayed to Jesus for salvation.
LittleToe said:
"If you want to raise up high hurdles for folks then prepare to be lambasted, from scripture if necessary"
Where did I raise up "high hurdles" for anyone? Is the truth too high of a hurdle? Is the true Gospel too high of a hurdle these days? Should we just start preaching that everyone is saved no matter what they believe because God is love?
LittleToe said:
"When it comes to the stumbling of "little ones" my stongest ire is drawn. I am passionate about Christ, passionate about the gospel, and passionate about exJWs who don't need more barriers erecting in front of them. This is one reason that I castigate one-hit wonder, Born-again, ne'er-been-JW, bible-thumpers who visit this site and start spouting off. Its one of the few things in life that I WILL NOT TOLERATE."
But, wouldn't it be considered stumbling a "little one" if they ended up believing in Unitarianism and denying the Deity of Christ because they believed in some teaching like the one where you said it's not very important whether someone believes in Unitarianism or not? I am also passionate about Christ and His Gospel, and about helping the exJW's. But, what the exJW's need more than anything else is the TRUTH of the GOSPEL and the TRUE Jesus Christ, not an "Easy-Believism" where they can believe whatever they want and still be saved.
I am very passionate about my Savior, and that is why I cannot stand to see someone claim that it makes no difference if you are a Unitarian or not. Unitarians (including JW's) are on the road to Hell. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
LittleToe said:
"Which scriptures? What is the minimum knowledge required? You acknowledge that the minimum isn't a knowledge of the Trinity, and yet are you so sure that you aren't setting a bar that is still too high? What about those who cannot read? "He die, me no die" "
Paul answered the question you raised about those who cannot read:
Romans 10:13-17
(ESV): For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Paul said you can be saved by believing in the truth of what you HEAR about the Gospel -- you don't have to READ the Gospel.
But, did you notice Romans 10:13 and Romans 10:9, where Paul says to be saved you must call on the Name of the LORD (YHWH), and he also said to be saved we must confess that Jesus is LORD!
LittleToe said:
"What was Peter's answer toward the end of John 6?"
Peter said that he and the disciples had come to believe that Jesus was The Holy One of God, The Christ, The Son of the Living God. However, it appears that they did not yet truly put faith in Jesus, because look what Jesus told them later in the Gospel of John:
John 16:30-31
(ESV): Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God." Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe?
So, in John 16, the disciples finally believed that Jesus knows all things (which is an exclusive ability of God), and that Jesus CAME OUT from God. In other words, they finally believed that He was God because He comes out from God.
However, once again, it appears that at least one of the Apostles did not truly believe yet, because Thomas did not truly believe Jesus to be God until He appeared to him after His Resurrection. (John 20:27-29)
Frank75

That's exactly what I'm saying. I don't force anyone to agree with me. I let go of dogma when I left the WTS. The simplicity of faith doesn't include an indepth understanding of the Trinity. If you say it does then I'll condemn you for putting a stumbing block in front of the brethren...
Littletoe:
Although we don't see eye to eye on the global warming debate, we do agree very much on this one. It is sad to see so many who have left the dubs, but in many ways are still trapped by the mind control. The Unitarian position is just one of them.
I think that unshackled by the tentacles a former dub cannot get around the mountain of inference in the scriptures that give Divinity to Jesus and the Holy Spirit while remaining monotheistic.
By inference I mean things like Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane answering "I Am" to the soldiers and for some reason they fall to the ground. Simply explaining it away as a grammatical or syntax issue hardly explains the inference of knocking these to their knees.
One thing that cannot be disputed is that Jesus told the Jews that if they destroyed the temple HE would build it up in 3 days. (John 2:19) He was talking about his death and resurrection and the disciples recalled those words when Jesus had raised from the dead. Again no matter how you slice it, Jesus said HE would raise the temple (his body). That caused quite a commotion of credulity as the Jews thought he meant the literal temple (as per their response). If Unitarians are right and it was Jehovah God who raised Jesus, then Jesus erred in what he said. This stumbled many Jews for no reason because Jesus could have rightly responded instead that "The father would raise the temple (or his body)" and none would have disputed Gods ability to build the literal temple in 3 days! Nor would his disciples have been confused about who did the raising of Jesus.
Recently my brother who left the Witnesses had a chat with his family at dinner about the nature of God. They read some verses and he solicited his wife and 5 children to express their opinions about whether Jesus is God or not. Some of the kids saw that Jesus was God and yet others did not no doubt still influenced from the JW upbringing. My dad who lives with them and who hasn't been to a meeting in 12 years or more left the room and brought back his reasoning book to dispute what he thought my brother was teaching namely the Trinity.
My dad thought he was pushing the Trinity. The problem is that he didn't conclude anything but rather asked everyone to speak freely and did not criticise their answer. After my dad spoke my brother said to his family that the ambiguity in the bible should make any conversation about the substance of God a very minor issue and definitely not worth fighting over while in contrast what needs to be foremost are the teachings of love and clearly stated principles that Jesus preached outspokenly and parabolically.
I am really proud how far he has come in his faith. What a pleasant difference from the days of arguing over these trifles while ignoring plain statements such as the good Samaritan or what is said in Matt 7:1, 18:15-17 or the many things mentioned in the sermon on the mount.
I wish everyone could come to that reality check, but I guess we humans need drama to justify our existence.
Frank75
LittleToe
UnDFed:
I apologise for leaving this thread for so long. I misplaced it in my memory, and just saw it bumped today..
THE SIMPLE GOSPEL
I'm going to cut to the chase with a few comments:
You quote Gal1:9 "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
To which I would counter, what was the message that Paul took to the congregations, if not the following?
1Cor. 2:2 "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
You then continue on to invoke John's words about apostate teachings:
2John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
But is John attacking genuine debate or the questions that come from lambs, here? Rather isn't he warning against those that intentionally subvert the faith of others, when they have previously held a clear view of the doctrine of Christ? You seem to be quick to raise the ante by infering that those who disagree with you are [truly] apostate, leaving yourself open the opportunity to shun them. Whether this is your intent or not, I caution you that this angle triggers all the worst things of a JW upbringing in me (and likely many others). Kindly leave it out!
DOCTRINE OF CHRIST
In your latest exchange you erroneously suggest that I merely see such debates as "irrelevant". I wouldn't still be discussing it if I felt that way.
That aside, I need to ask you some probing questions:
- Did the Old Testament Saints know the name "Jesus"?
- Did they even have a clear understanding of the "Cross"?
- Were they putting their faith in anything supplemental to "God"?
- While I accept that we are now in an age where it is easy to access a better understanding of Christ, do you believe it possible (in some circumstances) to come to faith without a clear understanding of the "Doctrine of Christ"?
And to address some of your further points:
Jesus sure made a BIG DEAL out His true identity.
I disagree. He didn't. He downplayed his position. While he assumed the title "Son of Man", he only openly acknowledged that he was the Christ to those whom the Spirit had already revealed it to.
Jesus taught that Unitarians are going to Hell...
No he CERTAINLY didn't - you overstep yourself mightily!!! He taught that he was the way to life. He taught that he was the light that had entered the world. He taught that he came to save not to judge.
...you are teaching "lambs" in the faith that it is not important, basically, you said it doesn't matter whether you believe that Jesus is God -- you can still be saved.
To which I kindly say "p*ss off! Don't put words into my mouth!"
I have clearly stated over and over again that the focus is Christ. Whether or not an individual has a clear perception of Jesus' Divinity does not appear to impede the Spirit from regenerating those whom he will.
LittleToe, I challenge you to show me any verses of the New Testament that teach that you can be saved while believing that Jesus is NOT God.
You're asking me to argue a negative. Its akin to asking an Atheist to prove there isn't a God, period. There are several instances of Roman soldiers (including Cornelius) where it isn't clear whether or not they knew about Jesus Divinity, and yet they were clearly putting faith in something and were saved.
According to the Bible, should Christians desire to have "unity" with those who deny the truth about Jesus Christ?
You certainly seem very keen to write people off, wherever possible. Have you learnt nothing from the JWs? I highlight again that intentionally or not you are hitting triggers that you REALLY don't want to go near!
Since I hold that the Doctrine of Christ includes salvation by "Grace through faith" (Eph.2) am I to repudiate and shun my Armenian brethren?
Can you "know" someone without knowing WHO they are or WHAT they have done?
Yes.
I'm going to leave my reply as stark as that.
So, in your opinion, calling the Bible "the Truth" is blasphemy? Was Jesus a blasphemer?
Every last one of those verses refered to himself, rather than crumbling papyrus. I would suggest that Barth may have been right in highlighting that some have made an idol of paper. I'm not attempting to undermine its place as the "only rule", the essence of which is written on the heart, but neither will I place paper on the throne alongside the lamb. Or do you neglect John's words in the last verse of his Gospel?
As I said before, the reality is that Jesus is God. But how does that reality alone save anyone? The reality also is that Jesus died for sins on the cross, but does that reality save us if we do not come to Jesus for salvation?
Now we're finally getting somewhere.
You now appear to confess that [knowledge of] the reality that Jesus is God does not save anyone - coming to him for salvation does. Please tell me that I've picked you up correctly and that you're not presenting another gospel?
Jesus made it EXTREMELY clear that no one can be saved without BELIEVING THE TRUTH about Him, about WHO He is, and WHAT He has done for us:
And there ya go raising a sequence of barriers again to initial regeneration. No, no, no, no, NO!
Believing in HIM as the source of an individuals salvation was the only requirement.

UNITARIANISM
You then run off on a diatribe against Unitarians, which [albeit interesting] I'll condense into the following short comments:
Can a person be converted WHILE still believing in the Unitarian version of Jesus?
Yes.
Can a person be saved without coming to Jesus and calling on His Name and praying to Him?
What did CS Lewis suggest in "Mere Christianity"?
But, wouldn't it be considered stumbling a "little one" if they ended up believing in Unitarianism and denying the Deity of Christ because they believed in some teaching like the one where you said it's not very important whether someone believes in Unitarianism or not?
You appear to have sincere difficulty separating out the difference between the milky things of the first steps of salvation and; the deeper things of correct doctrine. I thank God that, while I met many people like you on their doorsteps, it was the gentle leadings of the Spirit that taught me good Calvinist doctrine after I came to faith in Christ; and this before I ever put foot inside a church.
I am very passionate about my Savior, and that is why I cannot stand to see someone claim that it makes no difference if you are a Unitarian or not.
I never said that.
Unitarians (including JW's) are on the road to Hell.
You overstep your authority, brother.
Paul said you can be saved by believing in the truth of what you HEAR about the Gospel -- you don't have to READ the Gospel.
I agree.
Peter said that he and the disciples had come to believe that Jesus was The Holy One of God, The Christ, The Son of the Living God. However, it appears that they did not yet truly put faith in Jesus, because look what Jesus told them later in the Gospel of John:
Interesting. So Peter follows Christ, confesses him from his own lips, and yet you would place his conversion at a much later date, simply because they came to a better understanding of some of the deeper things of God...
...please stop raising hurdles even against the Apostles...
However, once again, it appears that at least one of the Apostles did not truly believe yet, because Thomas did not truly believe Jesus to be God until He appeared to him after His Resurrection. (John 20:27-29)
My favourite passage of Scripture. Thanks for quoting it.
So if a Christian has a period of faith-shaking doubt, would you place him back at square one again? I apologise, I got off on the wrong foot with this whole discussion - I didn't realise you were an Armenian...
LittleToe

Frank:
Nicely put, and thanks for recounting that story. It really demonstrates the tenacity of the WTS mindset.
I'll never forget the time I finally expressed my "doubts" to my Dad shortly before I left the JWs. He switched into Reasoning Book mode and after a couple of seconds I had to interrupt him, saying (and I paraphrase now, after so many years) "Dad, hang on a minute. You've just put a doorframe around me and treated my like a householder! I know that argument, that illustration. I learnt it and taught it myself. You're not presenting anything new to me here. You need to try another approach".
The result was astounding. He was shocked into silence and blinked like an owl.
Then and now I continue to maintain that "Christ" is not only pivotal to faith, but is also pivotal in the misunderstandings of JWs. Not the Trinity, or Hell, or 144,000, or any number of other pieces of window-dressing in the knowledge of what is supposed to be what. Simply Christ, demonstrating the compassion and love of God to a needly world.
UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe, thank you again for your reply.
I apologize if perhaps I have not worded my beliefs as clearly as I should have in this thread. It appears there are a few misunderstandings between what both of us believe. I will try to comment more on your latest post to me as soon as possible.
First, (since I am limited on time at the moment), I will comment on the following statement you made:
LittleToe said:
Believing in HIM as the source of an individuals salvation was the only requirement. (emphasis added by UnDisfellowshipped)
So, let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that you only have to believe in Jesus as Savior to be saved, and it is not required to believe in Him as Lord, or Christ, or The Son of God to be saved? In other words, you're saying that people receive eternal life without trusting in Christ as LORD or as CHRIST or as the SON OF GOD?
If that is what you are saying (and I don't want to sound argumentative), why does the New Testament say the following statements:
The Good News declared by God's Holy Angels at Christ's Birth:
Luke 2:10-11 (ESV): And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Why did the angels proclaim to ALL people that Jesus is a Savior, WHO IS Christ THE Lord? Why didn't the angels proclaim Jesus only as Savior, since they were preaching to all people, including unbelievers and new lambs? If it is not necessary to believe in Jesus as Lord and Christ to be saved, why would the angels of God raise up this "high hurdle" for new believers?
The Lordship of Jesus Christ:
Why did Jesus Christ Himself proclaim to the unbelievers and the seekers and the new lambs that He is LORD?
Mark 12:35-37 (ESV): And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, "How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.' David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?" And the great throng heard him gladly.
Was Jesus guilty of raising up "high hurdles" for new ones?
Romans 10:8-13 (ESV): But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Acts 16:30-31, 34 (ESV): Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." [...] Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.
Can a person be saved without believing in and trusting Jesus as Lord? What does the Greek word for "Lord" mean? What did it mean in the Septuagint, which Paul quoted from? How would the Jews have understood his words at Romans 10:8-13?
Why did Paul say that IF you believe that Jesus is Lord you WILL BE saved? Doesn't that mean that people are not saved UNTIL they believe that Jesus is Lord?
Was Paul guilty of raising up "high hurdles" for new believers, because his Good News taught that you must believe in Jesus as Lord, and not only as Savior?
1 Corinthians 12:3 (ESV): Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
Why was it so important to declare that "Jesus is Lord"?
Romans 14:9 (ESV): For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
According to Romans 14:9, why did Jesus Christ die and rise again?
Jesus Christ as The Christ (Messiah) and The Son of God:
John 20:31 (ESV): but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
According to John 20:31, why did John write his Gospel? How does a person receive eternal life? Is it by believing in Jesus as Savior alone, or do you have to believe in Him as The Christ and The Son of God?
Acts 17:2-4 (ESV): And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ." And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.
Why did Paul try to persuade unbelievers and seekers that they had to believe in Jesus as The Christ? Wouldn't he then be guilty of raising up "high hurdles" for new ones? Why didn't Paul just say that they needed to believe in Jesus as SAVIOR?
1 John 2:21-23 (ESV): I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
1 John 4:15 (ESV): Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
Why did John say that? Is he guilty of raising up "high hurdles" by proclaiming that you are NOT saved unless you believe that Jesus is The Christ and The Son of The Father?
John 1:34 (ESV): And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."
Why did John the Baptist proclaim Jesus as The Son of God to the new believers, the unbelievers, and the seekers? Why did John not merely proclaim Jesus as SAVIOR? Was he also guilty of raising up "high hurdles" for new ones?
Acts 9:20, 22 (ESV): And immediately he proclaimed Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God." [...] But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ.
Why did Paul, immediately after his conversion, go right out to all the unbelievers and seekers and new ones, and proclaim to them that Jesus is THE SON OF GOD, and why did he PROVE that Jesus is THE CHRIST? Why didn't Paul merely proclaim Jesus as Savior? Why was he raising "high hurdles" for new ones?
UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe said:
There are several instances of Roman soldiers (including Cornelius) where it isn't clear whether or not they knew about Jesus Divinity, and yet they were clearly putting faith in something and were saved.
Acts 10:34-44 (ESV): So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
What was the Good News that Peter preached to Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him? Here it is:
1:) Jesus is the Christ.
2:) Jesus is LORD of all.
3:) God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and with power, and Jesus did many good works and healed people who had been oppressed by the Devil because God was with Jesus.
4:) Jesus was put to death on a tree.
5:) God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day.
6:) Jesus appeared after He was raised up to His followers.
7:) Jesus commanded His followers to preach to all people that Jesus is the Judge who has been appointed by God.
8:) All the prophets bear witness that Jesus is the One who forgives all those who believe in Him.
AFTER Peter preached all of that, THEN The Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius and the other Gentiles.
Why did Peter preach to Cornelius that Jesus is LORD OF ALL? Why did Peter say that Jesus commanded His followers to preach that He is the Judge of the living and the dead?
Matthew 28:18-20 (ESV): And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Jesus said that when we make new disciples, we should teach them to observe ALL that Jesus has commanded His followers. Was Jesus raising up "high hurdles" for new believers? Would not the "ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU" include His statement that He has ALL authority in heaven and on earth? Would it not have included some kind of a basic explanation of why people are baptized in the Name of The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit? I'm not saying that a person has to believe ALL the teachings of the Bible to be saved. I'm merely showing that Jesus did command us to teach ALL the things He commanded, to NEW disciples. I agree that there are times when it is better to feed "milk" only to new believers, and not get too in-depth.
UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe said:
I need to ask you some probing questions:
Did the Old Testament Saints know the name "Jesus"?
They did not know that Jesus/Iesous/Joshua/Yeshua was going to be the Name of the Messiah. They did know of several Names of the Messiah, such as Immanuel, Shiloh, Branch, The Mighty God, Yahweh Our Righteousness, Messiah, Prince, King.
LittleToe said:
Did they even have a clear understanding of the "Cross"?
God's true people understood the need for a sacrifice (hence the animal sacrifices), and that the Messiah would come one day to bring forgiveness and put an end to sin. They should have known that The Messiah would suffer and die for them based on Isaiah 53 and other Scriptures. Our knowledge of the level of understanding of the saints before the New Testament is not 100% clear. We do know what they SHOULD have believed based on Old Testament prophecies.
Hebrews chapter 11 says that Moses put his trust in the Messiah and suffered for the Messiah. Jesus said that Abraham looked forward and saw Jesus' day and rejoiced. Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus. The Bible says that ALL of the faithful prophets of the past spoke (and wrote) about The Messiah and what He would accomplish, as the Spirit of Christ moved them. So, the ancient prophets had a relationship with the Spirit of Christ. Also, Paul wrote that the Jews in the wilderness partook of the same Spiritual Rock which was The Christ.
Isaiah also proclaimed that the Messiah would be The Son of God and The Mighty God (which was another Name of Jehovah), as well as The Eternal Father (or, Father of Eternity) who would be born of a virgin.
LittleToe said:
Were they putting their faith in anything supplemental to "God"?
As I have shown above, they also put their faith in The Messiah, The Son of God, and the Messiah was also THE Angel of the Lord who appeared to several key saints in the Old Testament.
LittleToe said:
While I accept that we are now in an age where it is easy to access a better understanding of Christ, do you believe it possible (in some circumstances) to come to faith without a clear understanding of the "Doctrine of Christ"?
Is that what Jesus taught, though?
John 14:6 (ESV): Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Is that what His Apostles taught?
Acts 4:12 (ESV): And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
Regardless of whether anyone was saved in the OLD Testament times without having a clear understanding of the Messiah and what the Messiah would do, in the NEW Testament, after Jesus established His NEW Covenant, Jesus and His Apostles made it very clear that you must go through Him to get to The Father.
Now, if you are asking me about people who have never heard the true Gospel, then Jesus, the Judge, will decide what to do with those people. There have been reports about people in Muslim countries receiving dreams or visions about Jesus Christ. In Revelation it says God may use angels to proclaim the Good News at certain times. The Bible does not specifically say what happens to those who have never heard of the Gospel. It does give some verses that may give us some clues on this.
Look what Paul said:

Acts 17:30-31 (ESV):
The times of ignorance God overlooked , but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."
Romans 1:20 (ESV):
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Romans 3:20-26 (ESV):
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 2:14-16 (ESV):
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
LittleToe
UnDF'ed:
Words are symbols.
What meaning do the following words convey to a modern un-churched mind?
1. Christ
2. Messiah
3. Lord
4. God
5. Son of God
6. Holy Spirit
7. Love
What do they convey to a JW mind?
I apologize if perhaps I have not worded my beliefs as clearly as I should have in this thread. It appears there are a few misunderstandings between what both of us believe.
Such is the risk of debate. Its fun, though, isn't it?
Was Jesus guilty of raising up "high hurdles" for new ones?
Nope. Though he did then go on to teach deeper things.
You also neglect to answer the following question:
LT writes: So if a Christian has a period of faith-shaking doubt, would you place him back at square one again?
Now I've given a few details on my level of understanding upon coming to faith. Why don't you take the opportunity to testify - how did you come to faith?
gumb

"Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength'"
- Mark 12:29
Jesus here clearly states, in the context of the understanding of his Jewish listeners, that the greatest commandment involves identifying God as being 'one' in the strictest monotheistic sense. Therefore there is no condemnation (no 'hell') for anyone who asserts that there is one almighty God. For the Jews, going beyond that simple understanding of the oneness of God was tantamount to blasphemy. Those who out of the need to maintain a good conscience before God refuse to add to that statement made by Jesus to include anything other than one God, one person, are to be commended. Christians are expected to confess that Jesus is both the Messiah and THE (i.e. pre-eminent) Son of God. Christians are under no obligation to believe anything different from what Jesus actually revealed about himself. Therefore, anything written in the NT must agree and be interpreted from that position. The ultimate authority for delivering truth comes from the Master, this truth being that which was expounded in his earthly teaching.

Trinity?

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