Jehovah We'll Believe When We See Signs & M...

by MDS 46 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Carmel

  I don't mean to be offering to hold your coats while you'all fight but your "discussion" gave me pause to reflect. It seems to me there are sufficient scriptures to support both sides of the trinity question all in the same holy writ. How could it be then that the same God and His supposed inspired apostles could promulgate such a contradiction? Is it not possible to reconcile the scriptures to one logical and reasonable explanation? And just how important is the issue anyway?

  It seems in times past peoples lives were lost for simply being on the wrong side of this issue? When will reasonable people understand that other reasonable people can disagree?

  Maybe we should look outside the original Holy Writ for what others have to say on the issue...

  just a passing thought.,

  carmel
• 

  waiting

  Hey Sweetpea,

  you'all

  Yankees never get it right. Y'all.

  Now that I've corrected your pronunciation properly, I think you've got an interesting point.

  Seven seems to like the "out of the box (Bible)" thinking also.

  I don't know about that, but I do agree with you that both sides of the argument can establish good, seemingly sound, points on the Trinity, as well as other scriptural doctrines.

  And it does, indeed, make one wonder why God would have the apostles and others write the Bible with so much cloudiness and interpretation manuvering room, doesn't it? I've heard it said before that that's one of the beauties of the Bible - you can read anything into it and take away any thought for your own from it.

  I agree. But haven't millions upon millions of persons died because of their interpretation of the Bible, which ultimately is their interpretation of God, who ultimately holds their everlasting life in his hands, and they feel they must obey God through their interpretation to gain everlasting life from God?

  Interpretation is like opinions - everyone has one. Which leads to another trite saying: we're screwed.

  waiting
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  Big Cosmic Joke. I can remember my Mom asking me to help her with good Biblical arguments against the Trinity. I can remember telling her that you can neither prove nor disprove the Trinity by using the Bible.

  Funny thing is, the only thing IMO that can be "proven" is a duality....if that.

  Maybe this is all a test. God creates a huge riddle book and sits back to watch the show....you think?
• 

  Frenchy

  Carmel:
  There are scriptures that are used on both sides of the argument. Sometimes the same scripture is used by both sides, each one reading something different into it.
  

  How could it be then that the same God and His supposed inspired apostles could promulgate such a contradiction?

  
  There is really no contradiction in the Bible about the Trinity. The Bible is not the source of this doctrine. I have quoted the following many times and I do so again here. This is an excerpt from the people who are the architects of this doctrine:
  

  The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies –The Catholic Encyclopedia

  
  I believe that this is the strongest argument there is AGAINST this doctrine. The formulators of the dogma state forthrightly that it is not a doctrine of the New Testament. They plainly state that it was FORMULATED in the second century (so it’s not an Old Testament doctrine either!) and evidently met some opposition from the Church ‘fathers’ because it was not until the fourth century before it was finally deemed Church law.
  The Bible does not address the Trinity concept because it did not exist then and therefore no refutation was necessary. There is no single term in all of scripture that denotes all three. There is no statement in the Bible that forthrightly states that all three are one and the same. Neither the Bible nor God is obliged to clarify a doctrine which is the invention of men.
  

  Is it not possible to reconcile the scriptures to one logical and reasonable explanation?

  
  I believe that scripture must be logical and reasonable for it to be of any benefit to us. If, however, you mean by ‘logical and reasonable’ that the Bible should be simple, well, that’s another matter entirely. It is not simple. I have stated many times here that I believe the nature of the Bible I such that it will allow you great latitude in interpreting what it is saying. Not in all matters but in a great many of them.
  How important is this issue? I think that everything dealing with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit is important. Is it absolutely necessary for salvation for one to be on the right side of this issue? I think that a person could be mistaken on this issue and still have all the qualities that Jesus prescribed to us. I don’t see where it’s a requirement for salvation. But that does not mean that it is of no importance.
  Perhaps to some people it’s only important to learn about God to the extent that it will mean salvation to them. While I do not minimize the importance of salvation to me, it is not my only concern. I simply want to know as much as possible about Him.
  

  Maybe we should look outside the original Holy Writ for what others have to say on the issue...

  
  I think that’s what we’re doing here! LOL
  I was hoping Theo wanted to discuss this.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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  Carmel

  Frenchy,

  Long time since I checked this thread. In any case the Koran is quite adamant that the text of the Bible, both ot and nt, support the oneness of God, that He is not made up of three nor his he a "begatter" ie he does not literally produce sons, or a son. Seems if Muhammed was the prophet His followers claim, He would be authorized to clarify the misconceptions of early christian theologians and the doctrins they introduced.

  carmel
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  OutInTheCold

  MDS:
  You inserted the quote below in your first post on this board:

  ...yes, why do we say, He would OBJECT to modern-day Israel, today's Christian in our modern-day times, a people Covenanted to Him, today's members of the New Covenant instituted by Jesus Christ himself, why do we say, Jehovah would clearly OBJECT to the giving of "signs"/miracles to His people?
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Forgive me, I'm new here...
  Would you please tell me, where is this quote from? Is it from one of Jehovah's Witnesses publications? If so, please tell me exactly where you found it.
  Thank you.
  OutInTheCold
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  MDS

  The above paragraph is not a quote from any WTS publication, nor any other published journal or publication.

  Take Care,

  MDS
• 

  ianao

  MDS:

  Can you give us undeniable proof that YOU are annoited from God. I'm talking proof that -YOU- have been chosen?

  Here is my angle: If you CAN give me proof, I must ask myself: "How many people could have come to the SAME CONCLUSION by reading the scripture you recite?"

  Do you remember the WACO Texas incident with the Branch Davidians? "David Koresh" practically thought he was an earthly genetic pre-cursor to Jesus Christ's return.

  He had PROOF of this, and ALL of it was in scripture. He used the same scripture to justify having his way with many women to latter "ressurect" Jesus. He also claimed to have the understanding of the seven seals of God in Revelation. He was stock-piling weapons and ammo, ready for armageddon.

  Where is this "precursor to Jesus" now?

  He's DEAD.

  Want to hear something pathetic? No Doubt many of his ex-followers still believe that children they had from him could be Jesus, or of lineage to his 'rebirth'. What a pitty, as they are far from the WAY that Jesus proclaimed himself.

  NOTHING is wrong with reading scripture and making an interpretation. Think about this... Did you KNOW you would be in the "position" you claim to be now, or did you DECIDE to take up that position since it did not yet exist on earth (according to your interpretation)?

  The people here who are having problems LISTENING to your message have gone through the psychological traumas of hearing 'truth' and knowing 'truth'. They are now in REALITY and are VERY reluctant to listen to another who very well may be a "false lamb, misleading many".

  You seem to have an ego about your intellect. I remember you telling others to refute your arguments in scripture, and you took extreme delight in them NOT being able to do so (in your opinion). You remind me of my old JW friend, who considered himself humble, until "preachin' time" came around. He then had an ego the size of a house because he had the 'truth'.

  -ianao
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  larc

  All these long posts tire me out. I don't really care if I can't figure out the nature of God, and I don't think he cares that I don't care. I remember a wll known xjw, one who had written a book, got into a long discussion on the internet about the trinity. At the end of it he wrote, "While we spent considerable time on this, how many poor people did we help." I think that's a good perspective.
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  waiting

  Hey larc,

  Good quote. I don't think I can top that one - for the moment.

  I agree fully.

  waiting