The question is moot, God has Sovereign Immunity.
Case dismissed.
WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?
by Terry 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Gopher
Fallacy. The analogy doesn't stand. A cake pan dent is physical. Sin isn't physical. That is where apologists try to slip one in on us unaware.
I think it's a fallacy too. The JW's taught that the moral disobedience produced a physical consequence in the genes, thus causing the original sin - Romans 5:12, etc. So they tell us 'we get sick and die because of our sin'. It's just another example of religion trying to satisfy's people's desire to understand life's mysteries (as if THEY have some special knowledge).
The Watchtower Society (and other fundamentalist religionists) gets involved in scientific speculation (genetic science in this case), they always seem to get in way over their heads.
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Anti-Christ
If you declare to a village of midgets that being under 6 feet tall is a crime punishable by death you can convict them and execute them, of course. But, you do not, in the process hold the law or the legislature out as a paragon of virture, intelligence or admiration in so doing.
Stepping in at the public execution of midgets and stopping their deaths does not, by the same token, make you--(the framer of law)--a hero!
That is a great example I hope you don't mind if I borrow it?
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kid-A
"What is wrong with this doctrine is that it makes God out to be a fiend, a sadist and a brute."
Exactly. And in my years here on JWD and a lifetime of dealing with JWs, I have yet to hear a remotely satisfactory rebuttal from a believer regarding this obvious logical fallacy.
The entire raison d'etre of christianity rests upon this hopelessly flawed "myth" of "original sin"..........
Any believers going to join the discussion?.............................<< crickets chirping >>........................
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Anti-Christ
"Help me Jebus!" -Homer Simpson
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choosing life
I never could understand how a moral decision could cause a physical change to genetic material either. In Biology, it is a basic understanding that only inherited traits, not acquired traits can be passed on to your children. Fot example, if you lost an arm, your children would not be born without an arm.
Add to this that what Adam did was actually make a moral decision, according to the account. There is no way that this could influence his genetic material that he later would pass on to his children. I have heard some people explain it that God actually damaged his genetic material at that point, but that just sounds incredibly cruel.
The pan with the dent to make mud pies in was just plain insulting to my intelligence from the very start.
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unbaptized
Terry,
The fact of the matter is sin was transmissable to Adams offspring through genetics. Just as hiv, aids and other diseases, infections and disabilities can be spread from parent to offspring. Adam and Eve were like the only humans on the planet at that time, so it was kinda of a no brainer for Jehovah to see that their sin would affect the children they would have in the future.
Now as far as the judicial system is concerned, Jehovah explained to the tenants exactly what their rights were and what he expected of them. In other words they had a lease or contract to abide by and they failed to honor their lease. They seized property that did not belong to them and were evicted with bad credit.
The insult to Jehovah came when he gave them life, love and a home to call their own, all he wanted was some loyalty and respect. Just like an adulterous mate, they see something that they are not supposed to have and they go after it not thinking of the consequences, such as losing ones moral standing or good name or family. So Jehovah legally had every right to convict his tenants and he was insulted.
Now sin can be considered a personal matter that's true, but if there are only two humans on the earth, how can that be considered a personal matter? If there were others living at that time before mankinds fall from grace, then I could understand someone being innocent. When Adam sinned it affected him and his wife and their dna. Just like when a person is infected with hiv, they take it home to their spouse and infect not only the spouse, but infects the future children.
I know how you feel, but religiously, scientifically and spiritually Jehovah is innocent!!!
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Terry
The fact of the matter is sin was transmissable to Adams offspring through genetics. Just as hiv, aids and other diseases, infections and disabilities can be spread from parent to offspring. Adam and Eve were like the only humans on the planet at that time, so it was kinda of a no brainer for Jehovah to see that their sin would affect the children they would have in the future.
You are skipping over the important details you realize! A disease has a cause external to the human organism. Germs, virus, bacteria are actually existing things. With Adam and Eve what is the external mechanism? THERE IS NONE!
You've made a giant leap in saying "..it was kind of a no brainer for Jehovah to see that their sin would affect the children they would have in the futre." Circular reasoning.
1.IN THE DAY they ate of it they were told they would die. They did NOT die IN THE DAY they ate of it.
2.There were no children in the Garden of Eden.
3.The damage to the relationship between God and man is a matter of how Jehovah decides to behave and not a matter of a sudden transmissable virus.
4.You don't seem to spend 5 seconds considering exactly what it was that was transmitted to the children.
Now as far as the judicial system is concerned, Jehovah explained to the tenants exactly what their rights were and what he expected of them. In other words they had a lease or contract to abide by and they failed to honor their lease. They seized property that did not belong to them and were evicted with bad credit.
You left out the "die" part!
The insult to Jehovah came when he gave them life, love and a home to call their own, all he wanted was some loyalty and respect. Just like an adulterous mate, they see something that they are not supposed to have and they go after it not thinking of the consequences, such as losing ones moral standing or good name or family. So Jehovah legally had every right to convict his tenants and he was insulted.
Poor baby, Jehovah! So misunderstood; so mistreated! No wonder he went all pouty and had to make sure billions of people die as a result!
The punishment is hurt feelings, after all!! Jehovah can't seem to suck it up and deal without going Postal on generations of innocents.
"Love does not keep account of the injury" is good advice--but, Jehovah can't seem to take his own advice.
You don't seem at all bothered by the inequality, the imbalance, or the total inequity of the equation: Jah's hurt feelings on one side and death to billions on the other side!!
Humans are entirely defenseless against the wrath of an angry god. They cannot injure a superbeing. It is the greatest mismatch in injury and payback conceivable.
When Adam sinned it affected him and his wife and their dna. Just like when a person is infected with hiv, they take it home to their spouse and infect not only the spouse, but infects the future children
Holy crap, Batman!! Explain how this works for the rest of us so that we can be privvy to such mindbending scientific knowledge you seem to possess!
Lamarckism has been totally debunked a long, long time ago. We cannot "mark" our children by our thoughts, our attitude or by our disposition genetically. The giraffe that stretches its neck to reach the top leaves on the tree does NOT produce long-necked offspring.
I know how you feel, but religiously, scientifically and spiritually Jehovah is innocent!!!
The unconceived posterity of Adam and Eve were innocent! Jehovah was a bully and sociopath if we are to believe the Genesis account.
I, however, do NOT believe the Genesis account is anything above the level of poorly constructed Just-so story (aka: myth.)
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Terry
I don't know if you've ever read any books by Rabbi Harold Kushner
I work in a bookstore in the religion, philosophy and metaphysics section. I have read Rabbi Kushner. He says God was all worn out after creating heaven and earth and can't be expected to deal with evil.
As apologists go; this one is certainly homegrown.
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Terry
By the way terry I love your posts and topics
The toughest thing I do is re-think things I've always simply accepted without examination!