Could This Kill The "Preaching Work"?

by metatron 24 Replies latest jw friends

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  OnTheWayOut

  So you think if the rank and file use their vehicles in the d2d, if they had no insurance and hit a car full of
  non-JWs, that they would sue the WTS?

  That if JWs ignored "no trespassing" signs in the d2d, that non-JWs could sue them beyond what the local
  non trespassing laws allow?

  We are in a litigious society. There is a lawyer out there who will sue McDonald's for making the coffee too hot,
  and serving it to someone who clumsily spills it on himself (many of us could do that) and sometimes, the lawyer
  will win. Therefore, there will be cases on the books where the lawyer goes after the deeper pockets of WTS where
  it was clear that personal responsibility was at play. A jury might sympathize with the plaintiff and make a reward.
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  orangefatcat

  very interesting indeed. i think it will send shivers to the GB and its legal department. it is about time witnesses recieve compensation for things done in the ministry. I posted some time ago a sister was run over twice her leg was shredded down to the bone and the driver was an elder and it just happened that I knew that elder and they recognized me in the hospital as the sister was my roomy. She was so upset and devasted and the elder never once apoligized. he said things like this happen. I hope she sued the pants off of him and then the Society.

  thanks for the great post

  Orangefatcat.
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  Blueblades

  Bebu, community responsibility, Rabbi's who control the mob. It was a Sunday and they were in school under the direction of the Rabbi's. We could identify a few of them. Redhead, spitters, violent ones. The leaders of the pack so to speak. Up front and in our faces.

  Blueblades
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  OnTheWayOut

  The WTS is currently self-insured and when JWs are injured at quick builds or on KH property, the JWs have to battle the WTS Legal to get any compensation, even hiring their own lawyer.

  At what point is the WTS corporation held liable and not the local KH corporation?

  What happens if a vehicle hits another vehicle on KH property? Are the respective auto insurance companies supposed to work it out? When is the WTS then involved?

  There was a recent case in NY where a Bethelite won workers compensation.

  They constantly tell rank and file not to "sue their brothers." They would expect the injured JW to blame himself for his
  injury and pay the bills, or threaten him with "That's not very spiritual!" if he gets a lawyer. There are instances where the
  injury would be no fault to the injured (as in the NY Bethelite who had to win Worker's Comp.).

  Common sense says that a parking lot accident is not the fault of the parking lot owner, unless conditions in the lot contribute
  to an accident. That doesn't stop lawyers from making a claim. I could see a legal argument over pedestrians in a K.H. entryway
  where there is a canopy for cars to pull under- the claim of building design creating hazardous conditions. I could also see an
  argument over faded "One Way" signs or painted arrows contributing to an accident, blind spots inbetween buildings, uneven surfaces,
  loose gravel, etc.

  There have been cases where someone was hurt using lawn and garden tools at a K.H.. There are rules on their usage now- adults
  only, no gasoline storage. I could also imagine a kingdom hall where a book study group MUST shovel the snow, and nobody but
  that one brother with a bad heart shows up, and he was TOLD to FIND A WAY TO DO IT.

  Yes, I can see liability lawsuits forcing the end of the organized preaching work for JW's. Just using the word "organized" suggests
  liability.
• 

  metatron

  Here's another thing to consider:

  Instead of offering magazines, they offer cheaper tracts , such as inviting people to the assembly

  or Memorial. And where do these tracts direct people? To the local Kingdom Hall or place

  where the assembly is held. I wonder if this is another 'dodge' from Watchtower liability.

  metatron
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  undercover

  As OTWO pointed out, JWs suing "mother" will be a rare thing as it is drummed into their heads that suing "your brother" is unacceptable. If you're conditioned to allow a brother in the hall to cheat you without legal recourse (which happens all the time) then you know that the majority of the R&F wouldn't even consider suing the WTS for damages in any situation.

  The lawsuits will have to come from outside. The elderly sister driving in service who shouldn't even be driving period (every congregation has one) who causes an accident with injuries. Is she alone liable, or would the WTS also be liable since, as a church volunteer, she was serving as a spokesman for the church? If the Society has placed barriers to protect them from lawsuits, then the local congregation could be sued, basically bankrupting them out of existence.

  If the local congregation and maybe the Society can be held liable in auto accidents caused by publishers, then the way the preaching work is carried out now will have to change.

  Before I left, I figured the day of anyone and everyone driving in service was over. I've seen some bad, bad drivers in the JWs, some of the worst. Yet, brothers have no qualms about overloading a bad driver's car with JWs and send them out to the killing preaching fields. I figured that they would have to have an approved list of drivers for field service by now.. There were some people that I refused to ride with because of their bad driving. More than once I caused some hard feelings for my seemingly harsh stance on the subject, but my life and health was more important than their feelings.

  When these people cause accidents and the ambulance chasing lawyers realize how much money the WTS has, you're going to see more and more lawsuits.
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  Borgia

  We have discussed several cases on this board relating to voluntary work. Basically, I see a very managable way out: No official WTS involvement in the preachingwork analogous to the, I believe, S77 form of which it is made clear that no reference whatsoever is to be made on that form alluding to or suggesting any WTS involvement in coming to a descisions on a persons status in the jw community.

  So, basically, informal control. No official papertrails. No reports sent to WTS HQ/branch. Just 2x a year the CO visiting. No writing, no WTS forms. It's the local KH business.

  Cheep and easy way out.

  Cheers

  Borgia
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  OnTheWayOut

  More than once I caused some hard feelings for my seemingly harsh stance on the subject, but my life and health was more important than their feelings.

  More than once, the wife and I caused hard feelings from mothers with children. They wanted to get out to field service
  and hoped we would drive them there. We didn't have the legally required child seats in our car, and they didn't bring
  theirs. We said "No way, it's the law." We could just imagine the lawsuit from a non-JW father (or even the JW mother)
  when they got hurt. Often, another driver would say we were too strict and put them in his car. I always offered to walk
  all the way with them, or take the same bus they would ride, leaving the car at the hall. My offer was only taken up a
  few times.

  It is, ultimately, the responsibility of each driver for how he drives. A successful lawsuit against the WTS would have to
  demonstrate that they place unreasonable expectations upon their members, causing them to engage in reckless
  activity. This will successfully be done, one day. A regular pioneer will be told to "get the hours anyway you can." He will
  stay out in the field service after too many hours and fatigue will set in. A lawyer will demonstrate that he was pressured
  by the organization to do this when an accident occurred. Similar with my child seats example. A lawyer will say that the
  driver did not want to be marked as unloving by this ridiculous organization, and was instructed by a CO or an elder to give
  these children a ride, and will make the congregation or WTS liable.
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  AK - Jeff

  In general email between Mr Stevenson [a Law Professor] and myself on this subject has ensued since first this thread began. I agreed to post his comments, with stipulation that it is not legal advise, but opinion from a Professor, so that no accusation of 'legal advise' without retainer could be made.

  In response to my question about the liabilty of the WTS in matters of volunteers and auto accidents, he said;

  Certainly. Especially if it is a church-owned vehicle, and if an accident really occurs (exposure to accidents is not enough for liability; there usually needs to be a tangible injury). On the other hand, there are 2 factors that could, in practice, help this particular group escape liability. First of all, depending on how the churches are incorporated and assets pooled, the church could be essentially judgment-proof. Most churches, of course, are very unsophisticated about their legal structure; the Catholic churches followed a legal structure designed to give the bishops complete, centralized control over all the assets, so when something goes wrong the lawsuit can reach directly to the diocese, where all the money lies. But it is possible to incorporate churches in a way that partition the building from the cash and both from the organization itself - which would shield nearly all the assets from any lawsuit, and make the lawsuit worthless for a lawyer to pursue. I have never inquired about how JW's do their legal work, but I have never found a church that did their legal work very cleverly. They are almost always more concerned exclusively about control and tax exemption, and never think they are going to get sued about anything. For my own church denomination, I have been trying to get them to include avoiding liability as the third point in structuring our legal arrangements. You could, of course, sue some of the members (the driver of the car, etc.), but JW's encourage their members to work at relatively low-income jobs and avoid university education, so most individual JW's are also judgment-proof (not worth suing). Second, JW's inculcate a very high level of loyalty/fear of leaving in most of their members, and this works to their favor when it comes to lawsuits - I assume most of the members, and even former members, are simply afraid to sue the church. This could be a fear of divine retribution, or maybe just a psychological inability to attack an intimidating authority institution like the Watchtower. If a non-member gets hurt in the accident, that is another matter, but my bet is that most people who get hurt in the situation you mention are the members themselves (maybe as they are walking from house to house in a neighborhood?). A third point: I did inquire recently into the legal structure used by Mormons, are another sect that uses a lot of door-to-door evangelism, and shares the second trait I mentioned above with JW's. Apparently they use the simple approach of settling all claims immediately, long before they proceed to litigation. Perhaps the Watchtower does the same thing, I am not sure.

  Then in a clarification follow-up regarding the most likely success against a church like Jw's;

  As far as what kind of cases work best against churches: sexual misconduct cases against churches seem to do well, as seen with the Catholic Dioceses that have declared bankruptcy in the last five years (and are now struggling to keep their buildings and cathedrals). There is an old case (1980's) where someone sued the Mormons for copyright infringement (I believe it was over copied computer software for cataloging genealogies), but lots of churches are totally careless about getting copyright permissions for the songs they use in their services, and the liability for copyright infringements can be quite large. Tax exemption issues can also be very problematic for churches, but the JW's seem to have this under control. But probably the greatest source of liability is the kid-getting-run-over-in-the-church-parking-lot scenario. Churches and schools are unique in being places where a large crowd (with an unusually large percentage of kids) congregates all at the same time and leaves at the same time, meaning there are kids and cars all over the place trying to move in different directions. The statistical likelihood of a kid getting hurt is pretty high.

  Then as to his personal perspective;

  Also, it would be great if you could have a link to my blog. Finally, in case your readers are concerned that I am just an anti-religious, atheistic lawyer, it might be good if you discreetly included a link to my church's website, www.maranathaglobal.com, so that it is clear I am not just trying to suggest that everybody sue their churches. I really feel sad for people who get burned by unhealthy groups like the JW's and Mormons, because a real relationship with God, and a knowledge of his Word, is the most fulfilling and rewarding thing a person can find in life. I doubt that most ex-JW's will be interested in my church (I assume most of them are avoiding all kinds of spiritual or religious groups), but I do believe it is possible to have a church that fosters a real salvation experience, and a community of faith, without inflicting the terrible emotional trauma that characterizes JW's.
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  BluesBrother

  Surely there are insurances that can , and probably are, taken out to cover this risk. As Blondie said, your normal publisher is not going to sue the Society - No way!

  Public liability cover is standard in Kingdom Halls in case somebody gets hurt, especially on construction jobs.