by Zico 58 Replies latest watchtower bible
I'm surprised you never heard it.
Probably because I've never asked. JWs tend to avoid quoting scriptures that destroy their doctrine, such as John 20:28, Luke 21:8, Rev 19:1 etc... The WT also reference these types of scriptures very rarely, so a lot of JWs won't even know they exist, as few of them actually read the bible.
Thanks Zico.
Moggy, that is so funny. It is amazing how a person can always invent an excuse (albeit poor ones) to justify whatever they want to believe. It is hard to understand how people believe those things.
What is devastating to the popular JW explanations (as nicely expressed by moggy lover)is that the statement is explicitly introduced as addressing Jesus: apekrithè Thômas kai eipen autô, lit. "Thomas answered and said to him".
Perhaps this is a reason for the discrepancy between the fuzzy written WT explanations, which avoid stating clearly what Thomas meant and concentrate on "what he couldn't mean," and the simpler reply from the average JW, which is more effective but doesn't stand up to a second reading of the text...
Oh come on! Thomas would never say God as people do today, 'ohmygawd'. Do jw's do that? Not being a jw I was always taught that was taking God's name in vain. My jw tried to explain that Thomas was talking to both Jesus and God. I should mention that he carefully says jehovah god so I don't confuse him with bob god or some other god. He's so considerate.
Not to support the WTS but I am not a trinitarian and wasn't one even before joining the JWs. What I look at is the overall picture of the NT which makes Jesus subordinate to the Father as He Himself admitted after all. Jesus is God in the sense that He is a god and one in full harmony with the Father. He got that status after His passion and as a reward for it, the Father Himself granted him this status and let him sit on His throne. The JWs marginalisation of Jesus to a basically coincidental figure in the grand scheme of things is due to Judaising influences rather than Biblical ones. It was the Jews that funded the WTS into existence so what else can we expect?
Greendawn, My main point was to show that Jesus is far more than what the WT says. Even though this scripture doesn't prove the Trinity, it proves that Jesus is far more than a created angel.
The JWs marginalisation of Jesus to a basically coincidental figure in the grand scheme of things is due to Judaising influences rather than Biblical ones. It was the Jews that funded the WTS into existence so what else can we expect?
Although Russell was not a trinitarian, he had a lot of focus on Jesus, and thought it was ok to worship him. This changed post-Russell. (see JWfacts link) I always thought their marginalisation was so they could promote themselves above Jesus, I've not heard of this Jewish influence before, where does this information come from?
I agree with Greendawn. I don't think that most unitarians would argue against Christ being God in the sense that he is divine. Scriptures are clear on that point. (Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, etc.) But the scriptures also seem to be very clear that Christ is in subjection to Almighty God even though his exists in "God's form" or "nature." Paul says at Philippians 2:6-11: "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." In Paul's discussion to the Colossians he speaks of Christ as "the image of the invisible God" (1:15) and "...in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form...." (2:9) Christ is an "image" of God and reflects the perfect qualities of God in his very being. But Paul doesn't confuse the issue. In chapter 3 he states: "And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." Christ's role as "God" is never linked with a role as "Almighty God."
An image or reflection is not the same as the person.
Pahpa,
I don't think that most unitarians would argue against Christ being God in the sense that he is divine.
JWs would. Does that make you and Greendawn polytheists?
Zico
I think you are aware of the fact that the word "god" is a relative one in Scripture. Satan is the "god" of the world. Humans are spoken of as "gods" in scripture. The distinction comes with the difference between them and Almighty God. Jesus is never called Almighty God in the Bible. In fact, he is never called "God the Son." He remains as the "son of God." This position as "son" is easily understood in human terms. And this is how God revealed him to humankind. True, I don't think we, as humans, can fully understand the relationship between God and Christ since it is understood only in spiritual terms. But we should accept what God has revealed.
I do agree with you fully that the Watchtower has diminished Christ's role. Perhaps, in elevating the importance of the organization this was inevitable. This is the greatest error of the many errors of the Watchtower's teachings.
Hi Zico, Russell had a much better understanding of Jesus than do the JWs at present despite his other shortcomings and his dabbling in occultism. The Mason Jews were funding the JWs or Bible Students as were then known because Russell was very pro zionist. They supported them at least until the mid 1920's and perhaps they still do so in secret. That's how this Judaic influence crept in and that's why 1. the dubs are averse to talking about Jesus as being their Lord (they only pay lip service to this) 2. don't talk about their religious body as being the church of Jesus rather than the organisation of Jehovah (is Jesus their direct and immediate head or jehovah?) which 3. refers us back to the OT and its mindset bypassing the NT and its mindset 4. through false pretenses they cut off most of their members from the new covenent thus destroying the essence of their christian status, they were cut off from the vine as it were. So much for the insidious and powerful Judaising influences in the JWs.
