How do JWs explain John 20:28?

by Zico 58 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Terry

  Zico remonstrates: People will always argue over doctrine, will always have divisions, and will always use God to support them in war, and would do so no matter what the bible, or any holy book that's claimed to be from God, says.

  I think I understand where you are coming from on this. I appreciate your taking the time to go into detail about it. I'm more confused than ever now, however.

  I'm tempted to use bullet points to say why.

  1.The attribution of Apostle's names to Gospels is not much more than an affectation to lend authority to the contents. (The Gospel according to....)

  2.The early gospels are stripped of much of the super-hero Jesus descriptions (Mark) which gather impetus as the years pass until John gives us Super-Jesus who is Divine. This makes me suspicious of exaggeration.

  3.In important matters (like life and death!) the details are important. In a court case, the fate of persons and property lie in the balance of the telling of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. What you describe as the testimony of men (and their contradicting views) pretty much disables the details.

  4.The only explanation for the same religion (Christianity) having so many factions, divisions, sects and cults using the same Gospel accounts is this very lack of rigor in matching testimonies!

  5.The Roman empire was certainly bureaucratic. Thousands of writers, documents and official texts and observations, memoirs, rumours and myths circulated freely without so much as a mundane mention of a super Jew miracle worker who raised the dead, walked on water, made water into wine, healed the sick and restored sight to the blind, etc. and this seems impossible to explain to me.

  6.There probably was somebody or other represented by the character of Jesus who said and did things considered to be remarkable to the extent his fans didn't want his death to be ordinary. Elvis and JFK are good examples of such persons. Elvis still is sighted here and there and J.F.K. just had to be the victim of outrageous conspiracies involving the C.I.A., the Mafia, the Cubans, the K.G.B. and the F.B.I., but, certainly not one disaffected wacko named Lee Oswald. See what I mean?

  You are free to believe whatever you like. We are all entitled to our own opinion but not to our own facts.
• 

  Mad

  How to explain something when someone doesn't WANT to know! A real challenge! Let's try THIS!

  YOU are Thomas.

  Your faith has been DEVASTATED; Your "Messiah" was brutally killed & shamefully nailed to a stake/cross. He must have been another of the many false prophets, and you were stupid enough to believe him! Your world caves in as your faith & dreams vanish! Now this man is before you claiming to BE Jesus- but he doesn't LOOK the same (maybe it was dark- no electricity!).

  He tells you to feel his hands, and as you see the nail wounds- and FEEL them, Euphoric shock overwhelms you, as you cry out " My Lord and My God!", overwhelmed to realise it IS Jesus, and how grateful you are to God for resurrecting him! (He didn't see God; John says no man CAN see Him and live!)

  Now, I suppose, since the Catholic Dogma of the Trinity has been programmed into our minds since kids, that you desperately want to PROVE it, by saying that both titles he uttered were directed to Christ- contradicting what Christ himself said- and the rest of the Bible...BE MY GUEST!

  the Mad JW
• 

  Terry

  Now this man is before you claiming to BE Jesus- but he doesn't LOOK the same (maybe it was dark- no electricity!).

  Jesus had a twin!
• 

  Zico

  Terry,
  
  Thanks for your response. I wish I was a better writer so I could explain my thoughts better.
  
  I've read some from very good arguments for and against Jesus. You present good arguments against him, though the link I provided before give excellent arguments for him IMO (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/rediscover2.html) My real faith lies in my spiritual experience, but I don't want to go down that route now as it's impossible to describe to someone who's never experienced that.
  
  Right now I can only research and study and question. When I first started researching and studying about the WT Society on the Internet I still believed it was the Truth. I don't think I'll lose my faith in Jesus, but I can't and won't EVER say that for definite, because if I ever refuse to question something I believe than I'm basically back to where I started in the WT society.
  
  : You are free to believe whatever you like. We are all entitled to our own opinion but not to our own facts.
  
  I agree with this, I generally try to make sure I add words like 'believe' 'feel' and 'think' in what I write so I can make it clear that it's just opinions, if I didn't make it clear enough in my last post, than I apologise for that.
• 

  Terry

  Right now I can only research and study and question. When I first started researching and studying about the WT Society on the Internet I still believed it was the Truth. I don't think I'll lose my faith in Jesus, but I can't and won't EVER say that for definite, because if I ever refuse to question something I believe than I'm basically back to where I started in the WT society.

  For at least 10 years after leaving the Kingdom Hall for good I carried every teeny bit of rationale with me that I was indoctrinated with. Why? Because it tied everything up in a neat little bow for me and it also made more sense than competing versions of religion.

  That was my first mistake.

  I was comparing one wacky bottle of snake oil to other wacky bottles of snake oil and saying "My bottle has a nicer label and cures lumbago faster than the others!"

  Then, playing poker with some strangers one night I got into a discussion with another fellow at the table. He didn't know I had ever been a Jehovah's Witness. The subject of religion somehow came up. The other fella started spouting JW theology-explanations for this and that.

  I mean, I spotted him immediately!

  Intrigued, I slyly started questioning him innocently. He finally admitted he was no longer connected to the JW's at all and had left because of _________(fill in the blank; doesn't really matter right now.)

  I asked him if he believed what JW's taught was right or wrong. He said he thought they were a false religion.

  I surprised myself by blurting out: "NO YOU DON'T! You cannot possibly believe what you just said because you'd be sitting in a local Kingdom Hall right now instead of playing poker with us!!"

  He looked startled and uncomfortable. So was I!

  Why? I was shouting at MYSELF! My subconscious was screaming at my conscious!

  He was speechless.

  I suddenly realized this other guy (just like me) had been too intellectually dishonest to consider the dissonances with what he was espousing by reflex; that was wholly inconsistant with his literal knowledge that it was FALSE RELIGIOUS garbage!! He had not moved on and started over from scratch.

  Neither had I.

  It was a night of reckoning!!

  I had to uproot, examine, scrutinize, define and replant each and every single concept I had in my belief system and education.

  It was miserably horrible because I had all my emotional values connected with those beliefs!!

  All I'm doing here in "picking on you" is maybe holding up a sign that might be an attention getter for your subconscious to rally about.

  Maybe not.

  We are all different.

  I think you are an honest guy and I wish you well on your journey into a new world view.
• 

  Pahpa

  Narc

  I divide the Bible commentaries into two categories. Those that take the "higher critics'" views as "gospel" (excuse the pun) and those that accept the more traditional views based upon God's inspiration of the Bible. In the last few years there have been many hypothesis presented by scholars that run counter to the ancient traditions of the Bible. And while these hypothetical postions are accepted as facts by many because of the seemingly erudite presentations of their authors they still remain hypothetical in spite of the faith that some put in them.

  It reminds me of Paul's words: "For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.' Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him." (1 Co. 1:18-25)
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  Narkissos

  Pahpa,

  I suppose by "the last few years" you mean (at least) "the last 150 years". What you lump together and dismiss as "higher criticism" (a 19th-century phrase) has led to a wide variety of theories and stances which pretend to no consensual "truth" but have tremendously enhanced Bible understanding. Even the most conservative scholar cannot simply ignore it. The Catholic church has long (1943) given up its ban on critical Bible scholarship.

  Sticking to "non-critical" commentaries (which are overwhelmingly Trinitarian, btw) will make you miss the wealth of current Biblical scholarship -- but, to each his own.
• 

  ANewLeif

  Polytheism is belief in more than one God. Whether or not JWs believe Thomas was referring to Jesus, they believe John 1:1 calls Jesus a God and that Isaiah 9:6 depicts Jesus as having the title "Mighty God." They also believe that Psalms refers to the angels as gods.

  JWs are polytheistic and try to make themselves appear monotheistic. Their doctrine is inconsistent with monotheism and can only be explained as polytheism. They try to combine the beliefs of the ancient Israelites with the beliefs of First Century Jews and Christians as though these were identical. The sets of belief aren't identical; they don't combine very well at all. Combining them leads inexorably to polytheism.

  ANL
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  unbaptized

  OH MY LORD!!!!!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

  You actually believe that Jesus is the Almighty God!

  I think Thomas expression went something like that!