Redemption of sin by Christ. OT support or made up?

by Spectrum 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The whole sacrificial arrangement of the Mosaic Law is based upon redemption through sacrifice.

    In the Torah redemption and sacrifice are distinct notions. Plus, where was it ever hinted that sacrifices for "sin," for instance, would be ultimately replaced by a human sacrifice?

    Add to this the number of prophecies which foretold a coming one that would sacrifice for the sins and transgressions of others. Isaiah 53 is but one example:

    Hence it must not be that difficult to list a few others...

    How could the prophecies be any clearer than this?

    Er... by putting it in the future tense, perhaps?

  • Terry
    Terry

    The whole sacrificial arrangement of the Mosaic Law is based upon redemption through sacrifice. Add to this the number of prophecies which foretold a coming one that would sacrifice for the sins and transgressions of others. Isaiah 53 is but one example: "Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgression, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brough us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter... For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken...."

    How could the prophecies be any clearer than this?

    I guess you didn't read my previous posts!

    If you rub the magic lamp a genie will appear; what could be any clearer? Except there is no lamp and no genie.

    It doesn't matter what is written in an ancient story if the story is make-believe and makes no sense whatsoever.

    My complaint is that nobody (apparently you as well) bothers to examine each element step by step and see if it really makes the sense everybody claims it makes.

    In a nutshell:

    GOD made man the way man was. GOD did not make man equal to himself. By failing to make man equal to himself he built a FLAW into man. Man wanted TO BE LIKE his father knowning good and bad. (i.e. Experiencing what good was and what bad was in a meaningful way.)

    GOD did not allow man to be born. A baby is held, suckeled at his mother's breast, sung to, cuddled, told stories, experiences reality and is instructed as to the actual meaning of life step by step.

    MAN (Adam and Eve both) was totally without this nurturing instruction. Without life experience and wanting to be like his father, God; Man did the only intelligent thing available to him to gain this opportunity.

    NOW WHAT HAPPENS?

    MAN (Adam and Eve) is held accountable for NOT BEING LIKE GOD! God is perfect and man is not. Simple as that.

    However, God is now angry about the human nature being less than the divine nature and holds man in a state of cursedness which alienates him and condemns him to gradual deterioration unto death.

    Worse, however, by not ending man's life with a death sentence (JUST AS HE WARNED HE WOULD DO) God allowed man to mate with his wife and start off a chain of human refugees held equally accountable for what their parents did even though they did nothing of themselves in asking to be born into such a state.

    THIS IS GOD'S JUSTICE?

    The plan which supposedly follows is a Rube Goldberg cartoon rescue operation when all that was ever necessary was one of two things:

    1.End Adam and Eve's life as promised, thus, terminating the possibility of offspring from arising who would be regarded as equally offensive.

    2.Start off each child born with a clean slate and let each stand or fall by their own actions.

    However, ONLY ADAM (and his wife, EVE) was made without being born!

    JESUS can never be Adam's equivalent. Jesus was gestated in a woman's womb and nurtured and cherished by a family who allowed him to grow and play and engage his fellow creatures before being presented with a life or death decision requiring experience.

    Think about these things; don't just bite them off and swallow them whole.

    ADAM was the father of the human race (we are told) and JESUS was the second Adam.

    WHO WAS THE SECOND EVE???

  • toreador
    toreador
    How could the prophecies be any clearer than this?

    Narkissos wrote: Er... by putting it in the future tense, perhaps?

    Weren't the prophecies in a future tense?

    Tor

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hi Toreador,

    My reply was to the passage of Isaiah 53 as quoted by Pahpa. Read it again above. To me it is not a "prophecy" (in the sense of future prediction) at all.

  • Pahpa
    Pahpa

    Nark

    The early Christian Jews clearly saw the prophetic content of Isaiah 53 and is quoted in the N.T. as being fulfilled in Christ. Along with other prophecies which foretold the manner of the death (Ex.: Psalm 22) they also perceived the prophetic "shadows" and "patterns" in the Torah. Jesus becomes the fulfillment of the Passover lamb. It is his blood that atones for the sins like the sacrificial blood on the Day of Atonement. The author of Hebrews and Paul in his letters allude to these many times as well as other prophecies metioned in the Gospel accounts. (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:5, 10:1 etc.) Christians accept these as prophetic fulfillments. Non-christians do not.

    Like you, many of the Jews of Jesus' time refused to accept these as fulfillments of prophecy. They were opposed to the idea that Jesus was the Christ or Messiah. They rejected Jesus. Like good lawyers, they could rationalize many reasons why Jesus didn't fit their expectations of a true Messiah. And so it doesn't surprise us that this same attitude prevails among some today. It's all about faith. As I mentioned in an earlier post, one can accept the hypothesis of the Bible critics or one can accept the Bible as God's revelation. Obviously, you have faith in these higher critics. And that is your right and privilege.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Along with other prophecies which foretold the manner of the death (Ex.: Psalm 22)

    So here is # 2 (except there is nothing in Psalm 22 about redemptive or substitutive suffering, contrary to Isaiah 53). Same problem: without a previous knowledge of the Gospel Passion stories, who would ever read that Psalm as a prophecy foretelling anything? Like so many others Psalms it expresses the pains, pleas and hopes of a suffering righteous in a both typical and hyperbolic way.

    Like the passage of Wisdom which I quoted above (would you acknowledge it as a prophecy too?), it provided narrative material for the Passion story in Mark, without being formally quoted as "prophecy fulfilled" -- John (19:24, and some mss of Matthew), otoh, will make the correspondence explicit and claim fulfillment of prophecy.

    they also perceived the prophetic "shadows" and "patterns" in the Torah. Jesus becomes the fulfillment of the Passover lamb.It is his blood that atones for the sins like the sacrificial blood on the Day of Atonement.

    Same question as above on the sacrifices (which you did not answer): where in the OT was it suggested that the Passover Lamb, or the kippur sacrifice would have to be fulfilled later through a human sacrifice (an abomination to the Torah)?

    The author of Hebrews and Paul in his letters allude to these many times as well as other prophecies metioned in the Gospel accounts. (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:5, 10:1 etc.) Christians accept these as prophetic fulfillments. Non-christians do not.

    I don't personally care much for the "Christian" label anymore, but with that sweeping statement you are restricting it to those who accept the most fundamentalistic reading of the NT. Many Christians (Catholics, liberal Protestants) nowadays would readily acknowledge that when the NT writers referred to OT texts as "prophecies" they were actually reading their own faith back into the OT. Does that make them "non-Christians" or "false Christians"?

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    How could the prophecies be any clearer than this?

    Pahpa,

    Indeed, and such truth was embedded in the Law, with its Passover and other observances. When it was actually fulfilled in reality and revealed to the human race it then became the major component of this good news of the Kingdom. 1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; And it is our hope for a future and continued existence as well. Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Joseph

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