by Open mind 58 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Jehovah wiping out 99.99% of humanity, babies included, is a "problem" or "question" that I think can be very powerful to use with JW family.
Where the heck did you read that in the Bible?
It isn't in there.
It is the teaching of men, not the teaching of God, you take issue with, open mind.
BA
edited to add:
PS- How can you have an open mind if you can't comprehend what you read, or just take for granted what someone told you the Bible says?
Oops, more posters slid in there while I was responding to OTWO.
Nvr: Good point that I'll use if/when she's ready for the "BIG SLIDE".
Greendawn:
the people of Sodom will be resurrected
Jackpot. (At least for my selfish, little, current needs.) How's this sound? OK, maybe a loving God will bring Armageddon, but it's going to be way nicer than the Big A of Watchtower World. Only the really, really, nasty people (like me) will be smoten.....smitten....smatted all over the place. A huge chunk of humanity will be spared. As for Sodom and the Flood mass murders, at least they were only temporary. They'll get another chance. (Although, I think the flood desctruction was supposed to be forever, wasn't it?) But, as a temporary "irriational waystation" I think that might work. Thanks.
Open Mind
Maybe peddlars of Christianity are more zealous in spreading its ideas and convincing others to accept them. Islam does this too, but they started 600 years after Christ died and it is now one of the fastest growing religions today.
Poppers, I left the Watchtower.org because I did not want to be a peddlar of other books and mags plus other good reasons....The Bible however is out there for all to read in this year 2007AD, that is if they are so inclined...I don't have to peddle the Bible.
Many atrocities have been commented in the name of Jesus or God...or Muhamad....Is that God's fault?
Oops again.
BA:
Where the heck did you read that in the Bible?
You're right. The 99.99% part isn't. But Armageddon is. From you're reading, just how massive will the slaughter be?
How can you have an open mind if you can't comprehend what you read, or just take for granted what someone told you the Bible says?
That's why I didn't choose "Sharp Mind" as my username. I learned a long time ago that there are many much better debaters out there than me. I'm "Open" to listening to several sides of an argument, and hope that some minds sharper than my own can do a good job representing their viewpoints. But, I am willing to dip my toe in the pool, which I'm doing on this thread.
Open (not the sharpest) Mind
FYI. My father, a good man and long-time elder/regular pioneer tells me that he doesn't believe that Jehovah will only spare zealous, morally-pure, dedicated and baptized Jehovah's Witnesses at His Great Day. 'Jehovah will be far more merciful than we can imagine' he says. When I tell him that his personal views directly contradict the written official doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses he tells me that they are imperfect men and doing a wonderful work for Jah.
So close, and yet so far. So many good people that just can't find their way out. So very damn frustrating!
Nvrlsshp
"Many atrocities have been commented in the name of Jesus or God...or Muhamad....Is that God's fault?"............ I'm certainly not suggesting it is. Where is the "blame"? In those that so identify with a teaching they are willing to kill for it. Why are people so identified with a teaching that they would do such a thing? Do they perhaps get some kind of inspiration from their particular interpretation of their favored religious text? Are they protecting themselves because of a fear of what they might find if they don't rely on philosophy or religion to tell them what they are? Why are others' beliefs so threatening? Why this persistent need to rely on something outside oneself, to define oneself? What's the matter with finding out what you are without reliance on outside agencies and ideas?
Open Mind, it's the dubs that claim the Noah flood victims will not be resurrected but then crucially there isn't the least Biblical evidence that suppports this point of view, I think they just do it out of a calculated tactic to make God appear very severe and intimidate their members into thinking that any armageddon judgement is crashingly final. I suppose there were children among the drowned. And who can tell whether even those adult ignorant primitives were wicked beyond redemption, were they worse than the Sodom inhabitants?
Let's remember a very severe and vengeful god is crucial for their insidious mind games. Such negative oppressive emotions mess up the mind and make it prone to manipulations, it's all scientifically and diabolically designed.
And what does: "all the dead will hear my voice and arise" mean.
For the OP, most of us have come to certain conclusions gradually. It took me 25 years! Just to accept the idea that the Bible was an interesting book of myths, stories, some history mixed in and some characters that probably lived and have had greatly embroidered stories about them. It started with questioning the WT, but saying I would NEVER deny God/Christ/etc. Time goes on, you grow, read, think. . .a couple of epiphanies, some major contradictions. . .
I came to a point one day and said "If *I* were God" this is the way I would do things. Then I looked at some of the record and it occurred to me (after many discussions here, in particular) that no one could have gotten a 'nice' God like me any cred. Then I realized that MEN created God, in their image, to get their agendas taken care of.
I don't think that it was necessarily done in an evil grasping way. Perhaps it started with good intentions, as a tool to motivate and then it became this huge convoluted story that is debated, defined and defiled.
Ancient Greece and Rome had their gods and myths. Gone now. It has been pointed out that the God of the Bible has been behind talking animals, magic fruit, magical powers, death of infants, sanctioned rape, pillaging and other things that we (as christians) did our best to ignore or justify. After a while, don't y'all get tired of justifying this god who kills most everyone-or plans to send them to hell?
From you're reading, just how massive will the slaughter be?
From my reading, I rememember that God is Love, and that Christ, not me, you or anyone else, is Judge.
So, my answer would be I don't know- it's the only truthful one.
There are Christian schools of thought that make a very good case for everyone being forgiven eventually.
I'm "Open" to listening to several sides of an argument, and hope that some minds sharper than my own can do a good job representing their viewpoints. But, I am willing to dip my toe in the pool, which I'm doing on this thread.
My apologies if I came across harshly. I now see where you are coming from. I would just caution you on a few things:
- It seems as though you were awfully quick to abandon the Bible based on whatever reason. Is it possible that you could use your open mind to read it with your wife without any WTBTS literature involved. Perhaps start with Matthew and read the New Testament together? That alone should have your wife realizing that the JWs have very little of their teachings supported by the Bible.
- Hope for the best but prepare for the worst- My wife saw the same things I saw, but when I told her I could no longer have anything to do with the JWs, she surprised me and turned into "super-JW", which ultimately led to our divorce. Hope you have better luck, brother!
Cheers,
BA
I often found it amazing that believers who were uneasy (understatement) with the idea of God commanding the Israelites under Joshua to slaughter entire populations would not welcome the good news from history and archaeology that this never really happened. Instead that was met with strong denial. Those people were definitely not cruel or insensitive, only more scared at the idea of losing their belief in scripture as the inerrant ground for their faith. Iow they would prefer (unconsciously) the certainty of a bloodthirsty God to uncertainty about God. I think that applies very well to JWs and Armageddon. Trying to help them see the horror and absurdity of it all only leads to a defensive reaction in most cases.
I think the book of Jonah is a masterpiece of pedagogy to kindly lead people out of a "vengeful god" pattern. At least it may be interesting to read it from this perspective.
A more brutal approach (but one never knows) would be: "if someone offers you the opportunity never to die provided you agree with him killing 1,000 people, including a few hundred children, would you accept?"
