There is another side of this issue, which I want to stress is *completely different* than a person without a personality disorder. (Personality disorders being a specific set of symptoms which cause dysfunctional and manipulative behavior, not just an annoying person.)
Having worked in mental health, here is a glimpse into what it's like to constantly be responsible for preventing people from committing suicide or self harm. People with certain disorders do self harm as an ineffective coping/communication technique, and often as a method to get attention. Because it is not politically correct to let a person harm themselves--even in a small way such as extremely superficial scratches with a paper clip--mental health professionals' time is tied up jumping through hoops trying to save people from paper clips. If they do scratch themselves while hospitalized the staff is blamed, there are incident reports to file, investigations, and disciplinary action.
Basically it is ridiculous. Most times if we just ignored it the person wouldn't bother to do it, because they weren't getting the attention they wanted.
I have seen many times these manipulative people getting hospitalized for taking 5 Tylenols etc., just to get attention, at a hefty price to the taxpayers. Most people who really want to die don't scratch themselves with a paper clip then call 911--they actually do it. These people need treatment for their underlying disorder, not treatment that gives attention to negative behavior, which just fuels the disorder. These are the kinds of people/problems that take up most resources in hospitals and that is very sad. The people who really need and can benefit from care don't get it.
Again I stress--this does *not* describe the majority of people who try to harm themselves. However, it is a big problem in our mental health system which takes time and money away from delivering effective services.
I don't know what the solution is, but honestly there is something broken about our mental health system because society goes way overboard with preventing people from exercising free will. IMHO
Should suicidal or self destructive people have free will?
by The Dragon 74 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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rebel8
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R.Crusoe
All people are born with free will as is yourself. However others have influenced you to do certain things you would otherwise not have done, wilfully or reluctantly. You yourself have experienced this!
People in hospital with physically debilitating conditions often get no pleasure from waking each day and suicide seems almost a kindness. Like a lame horse or animal who can no longer enjoy life. And if you know it to be their will, seems a valid request!
Others have spent too much of their lives reluctantly doing the will of others till they get to a poit where their own will and wishes have been totally disregarded - as in families where an individual is ostracised. And being made to feel you are a complete failure is more than reason enough to not want to awaken each day. Choices have been denied you and the only choice you're left with is the one pertaining to your own life. Seems an insult to take your right to do that away as well!
So you may feel you are doing a kindness to them, but you may also be taking away any respect they have left - making them feel a total cabbage and not fit to make a decision about anything. The only real way to treat them is to let them have a free will but show them real friendship, trust and love.
These people are often not 'ill'. They're totally unloved, dejected and rejected as the person they are. Most people feel this before they go into WTB&TS land. The last thing they need is the hot branding iron of ostracisation on their brains! They need more acceptance and encouragement to be and discover themselves.
This is complex subject where short answers only skim the surface.
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Terry
Jean Paul Sartre said, "Do not say 'I did not ask to be born', for; by not ending your life you choose it."
Free will? Free how and from what?
Each of us has an individual nature we cannot escape.
We do not choose how tall or short we are. We do not choose our parents or our heritage. We do not choose how ugly or handsome we are or our bone structure or tendency to diabetes or cancer.
We do not choose our temperament or personality or sexual preferences. We do not choose our capacity to learn (I.Q.) or what turns us on or off.
Everything which individuates us as "choosers" is not within our choice.
SO HOW IN THE HELL do you think we have FREE WILL and what possible difference does it make within some narrow context as might be possible?
FREEWILL is illusory.
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frankiespeakin
Crusoe,
This is complex subject where short answers only skim the surface.
I agree, But individual freedom to chose, while being simplistic, still needs to be basic. We should not overide this, this to me is respect. Of course if some one has a short bout of depression that can easily be cured, the offer should be made to cure, and leave the disision up to the person.
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The Dragon
Free-will it would seem is limited to certain things we have control over...and yet there are many things we are not allowed control over.
In trying to gain control over a situation that is not producing the results we desire.....could we be unknowingly screwing up our future best interest?
Like if you fight for custody of your child who the mother or father is trying to keep you from for no good reason......is this a protection for you as the future may be the loss of the child and the accociated pain that comes with it......or do you do nothing and go about your life..and wait and see what happens?
Terrible scenerio...but at what point should we try to take control of our own destiny..and if we do..could we be self-destructing our future at the same time unknowingly?
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frankiespeakin
I think "free will" is not the term to use, "personal freedom", even "civil liberties" more accuratly home in on the issue. When we use the term free will we get lost perhaps in the direction of do we have free will or is eveything predestioned.
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jgnat
Even within the constraints, Terry, people individualize. It's amazing how much flexibility we do show.
Frankiespeakin, I think my comments stand if the words "personal freedom" replaced "free will". Not everyone is entitled all the time.
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Narkissos
In my (admittedly controversial and unpractical) opinion, any human "freedom" starts with the realisation that we can choose to die... even if it also ends, at least individually, with actual death.
I think our collective cowardice about this issue locks the individuals who come to this realisation into unnecessary loneliness, often driving them to the act of suicide sooner than they really want.
If we could bring ourselves to regard our relatives or friends as people who may choose to die, we might appreciate the fact that they don't (as long as they don't) a bit more, instead of taking it for granted. This would perhaps further more respect for their freedom and refrain our attempts at controlling them.
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jgnat
Loneliness and despair is one thing, narkissos, but I fear for those who are temporarily disabled through no will of their own. Take for instance, young mothers with Post Partum Depression. Her depression is brought about by an unfortunate coctail of very powerful hormones. When the hormones settle, she loses her depression. Is it fair to allow her the freedom to end her life, when she is under the influence of something totally out of her control?
Similarly I fear for Schizophrenics and those with Bipolar Disorder. Both, in their lows, may end their life prematurely.
http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/50/8/1036
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frankiespeakin
To see this thing more clearly, one has to be more objective ans less subjective. We must still honor a person more if we let them decide what is best for them and honor them more by not judging them as insane, it is a personal choice that may have nothing to do with insanity, some people become very calm and clearheaded when they really want to go, it is what they really wantt.We will miss them, and think about them, they did nothing bad, the only evil they commit, is just in the imaginations, of those culturally indoctrinated to think so.
Freedom is found in those that break free of control by others, Government should not interfer, sure they may lose another tax payer, but there are more on the way, all the time. Open your border and let in all you need.