Can Man See God and Live?

by JosephAlward 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

JosephAlward

The author of the book of John evidently believed that no man has seen God, while the author of Exodus tells us that Moses had, indeed, seen God. Either John is wrong, or Exodus is; either way, the Bible is in error on this point. Here is the evidence:
John wrote that no man has "seen" God:
"No man hath seen God at any time
(John 1:18)
Not that any man hath seen the Father,
save he which is of God, he hath seen
the Father. (John 6:46)
No man hath seen God at any time."
(John 1:18)
The author of Exodus says the penalty for looking at God is death: "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Exodus 33:20) However, Moses and seventy of the elders of Israel evidently met with God, saw him, and lived to tell about it. Here is the story:
"And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel and worship ye afar off.....Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Anadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And THEY SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone....and upon the nobles of the children of Israel HE LAID NOT HIS HAND." (Exodus 24:1-11)
If the statement that Moses and elders "saw the God" is not enough proof for doubters that Moses and others did, indeed, see God, then there is also the substantiating information that God didn't kill them. Why would the author tell us that God didn't kill them men if it wasn't normal for God to kill those who saw him, but in this special case, God spared the men? Clearly, then, the men SAW god. John said that such a thing never happened, so either John was wrong, or the author of Exodus was. Either way, the Bible is in error.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

>>>>>The author of the book of John evidently believed that no man has seen God, while the author of Exodus tells us that Moses had, indeed, seen God. Either John is wrong, or Exodus is; either way, the Bible is in error on this point. Here is the evidence:
John wrote that no man has "seen" God:
"No man hath seen God at any time
(John 1:18)<<<<<<<
Jesus, as man in the flesh, speaking of his heavenly Father.
>>>Not that any man hath seen the Father,
save he which is of God, he hath seen
the Father. (John 6:46)<<<
Again, speaking of the Father.
>>No man hath seen God at any time."
(John 1:18)<<<
Again, speaking of the Father.
>>>The author of Exodus says the penalty for looking at God is death: "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Exodus 33:20) However, Moses and seventy of the elders of Israel evidently met with God, saw him, and lived to tell about it. Here is the story:
"And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel and worship ye afar off.....Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Anadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And THEY SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone....and upon the nobles of the children of Israel HE LAID NOT HIS HAND." (Exodus 24:1-11)
Ex 24:9-10
9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel.<<<<<<
Moses did in fact see God, as MAYBE did these other elders. The context is slighty ambiguous. But neither Moses nor the elders saw the Father. Moses (and possibly the others) saw JESUS in his prehuman form of YHWH before he became a man. Jesus YHWH is the YHWH who can be seen if he wishes it to happen. Father YHWH is the YHWH that can NEVER be seen by any man, as spoken of by Christ in the NT.
"Saw" for a certainty, has figurative meanings as it may here with the elders. Ex: I "saw" the light. I "saw" my life flash before my eyes. Of course, none of these things were seen, but a certain perception of "seeing" something is understood.
>>Clearly, then, the men SAW god.<<
It IS clear MOSES SAW GOD (JESUS YHWH) and possibly those elders mentioned. But NONE of them saw the Father YHWH.
>>John said that such a thing never happened, so either John was wrong, or the author of Exodus was. Either way, the Bible is in error.<<
No, again, it is your lack of understanding God.
logical

They did NOT see God's face......
pomegranate

Jesus YHWH is the YHWH who can be seen if he wishes it to happen.
BUT NOT HIS "FACE"...as logical points out in truth. I would think to to mean (His face) being his FULL GLORY.
Father YHWH is the YHWH that can NEVER be seen by any man in any way shape or form, as spoken of by Christ in the NT.
JosephAlward

I think an important point in my argument has been overlooked. The Exodus author tells us that the god seen by Moses did not lay his hand on Moses.
"...THEY SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone....and upon the nobles of the children of Israel HE LAID NOT HIS HAND." (Exodus 24:1-11)
The "god" seen by Moses could not have been Jesus JHWH (whatever that is)--as Pomegranate asserts, because the Exodus author tells us that this god chose not to lay his hand on Moses and kill him. If the author HAD meant for his readers to believe that the god he was speaking of was Jesus in some form, he certainly would not have implied that this "Jesus" chose not to kill Moses; killing others is not in Jesus' nature, so such a statement by the Exodus author would be absurd. Thus, Moses saw the god which--according to Exodus--would kill anyone who saw him, so the Bible contradicts itself.
pomegranate

>>The "god" seen by Moses could not have been Jesus JHWH (whatever that is)--as Pomegranate asserts, because the Exodus author tells us that this god chose not to lay his hand on Moses and kill him. If the author HAD meant for his readers to believe that the god he was speaking of was Jesus in some form, he certainly would not have implied that this "Jesus" chose not to kill Moses; killing others is not in Jesus' nature, so such a statement by the Exodus author would be absurd. Thus, Moses saw the god which--according to Exodus--would kill anyone who saw him, so the Bible contradicts itself.<<
Man, you really have to stretch to keep your line of reasoning. Now it's because Jesus CAN'T kill according to you.
First of all killing evil doers for a certainty IS in Jesus nature, as was assuredly done by him in the past and will be done by him in the future:
Christ = YHWH = Son of Man
Luke 17:26-32
26 "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The "Son of Man" was the one who did the evil doers in at Genesis 6.
Killing evil doers. Just as he had done in Noah's day. Same God. For the same reason.
28 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
The "Son of Man" was the one who did the evil doers in Genesis 19.
Killing evil doers. Just as he had done in Lot's day. Same God. For the same reason.
30 "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot's wife!
Same thing coming. Same God who was the Son of Man, returning as a King in power. Killing evil doers. Just as he had done in Lot's day. Just as he had done in Noah's day. Same God. For the same reason.
Now for the reason he did NOT lay a hand on them there elders??? Simple. Read the CONTEXT of what YHWH said for them to do:
Ex 24:1-2
Then He said to Moses, "Come up to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel, and you shall worship at a distance.
2 "Moses ALONE, however, shall come near to the LORD, but they shall not come near, nor shall the people come up with him."
Is that what they did??? Nooooooooo. They disobeyed:
Ex 24:9-11
9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
GOD COULD HAVE KILLED THEM ALL FOR THIS BLATANT DISOBEDIENCE OF ALL OF THEM GOING UP. But he didn't Joseph. See?
11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Why did He not raise a hand for THEIR blatant disobediance???
Ex 33:19
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,
Rom 9:15
15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Jesus YHWH is the God who can be seen if he wills. He showed mery on the elders for their DISOBEDIENCE.
Father YHWH is the God who cannot and has not EVER BEEN SEEN. Way to magnificent.
That is the truth.
JosephAlward

Pomegranate equates Jesus to YHWH and writes,
"First of all killing evil doers for a certainty IS in Jesus nature, as was assuredly done by him in the past and will be done by him in the future."
This argument is unsupportable. Malachi tells us that God is unchangeable: “I the LORD do not change.” (Malachi 3:6) Therefore, YWHW could NOT have changed from the murderous, baby-killing god in 1 Samuel 15:3 to the all-loving Jesus described in the New Testament. If this god HAD made such a dramatic change in personality--as Pomegranate seems to suggest, then Malachi was wrong, which means the Bible is in error and cannot be trusted in its entirety.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

Jesus Christ was not in the form of God when he was a man. He left the unchanging form of God in heaven and emptied himself out to become 100% man.
Phil 2:5-8
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God [the YHWH Father] something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, [no more YHWH godship for Christ]
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. [Now, only a man]
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross!
He was a man like you and me.
Now, after his resurrection...back to being God again.
Phil 2:9-11
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Simple.
JosephAlward

Pomegranate has argued that the god seen by Moses was not the god who had the rule about striking dead anyone who saw him, but was instead "Jesus YHWH," the god who--according to Pomegranate--didn't mind if anyone saw him. This is ridiculous, in my opinion.
The god in Exodus 24:1-11 who was seen by Moses is called "YHWH" in the ancient scriptures, and it is this same "YHWH" who says in Exodus 33:20 that no one may see him and live. According to Pomegranate, the ancient authors used the exact same name for two different beings, "YHWH" for the most exalted, unseeable, god, and "YHWH" for Pomegranate's imagined "Jesus YHWH," making it virtually impossible for anyone to ever know which of the two the authors were referring to. Who can imagine that God would have his inspired writers to foster such confusion?
To summarize: Scripture says in one place (Exodus 33:20)that anyone who sees "YHWH" will die, but it also says in another place (Exodus 24:1:-11) that Moses saw "YHWH." There's is no way around this contradiction. To rebut this argument, Pomegranate will have to show why the "YHWH" in the one place is not the same as the "YHWH" in the other place--an impossible task, really.
Interested readers may consult the Blue Letter Bible (use the link on my web page)if they wish to confirm the use of YHWH in the indicated places; just click on "C" for concordance after entering the verse number.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

>>Pomegranate has argued that the god seen by Moses was not the god who had the rule about striking dead anyone who saw him, but was instead "Jesus YHWH," the god who--according to Pomegranate--didn't mind if anyone saw him. This is ridiculous, in my opinion.<<
That's your opinion. If it is true, your question is answered and you have no rebuttal except, "This is ridiculous, in my opinion," which is not backing up your rebuttal with fact.

>>The god in Exodus 24:1-11 who was seen by Moses is called "YHWH" in the ancient scriptures, and it is this same "YHWH" who says in Exodus 33:20 that no one may see him and live.<<
There's two YHWH's. Just like you have a Mommy and Daddy, we have two spiritual parents.
Please note when passing in front of Moses, YHWH Son describes God for Moses by proclaimation:
Ex 34:6
6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD (YHWH), the LORD (YHWH), the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
Two YHWH's. Father and Son
Isa 12:2
2 Surely God is my salvation;
I will trust and not be afraid.
The LORD (YHWH), the LORD (YHWH), is my strength and my song;
Father and Son. Two YHWH's.
Isa 26:4
4 Trust in the LORD (YHWH, Father and Son) forever,
for the LORD (YHWH, Father), the LORD (YHWH, Son), is the Rock eternal.
There are two YHWH's that are united as one.
Ex 3:14
14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.
Just as there are two I AM's.
>>According to Pomegranate, the ancient authors used the exact same name for two different beings, "YHWH" for the most exalted, unseeable, god, and "YHWH" for Pomegranate's imagined "Jesus YHWH," making it virtually impossible for anyone to ever know which of the two the authors were referring to.<<
YHWH is the surname Father and Son went by. Just as you and your father have the same name, in likeness of God. Jesus himself referred to his I AM YHWH-hood:
John 8:58-59
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Why were the Jews going to stone him? Christ was claiming he was formerly God in heaven, the I AM of Abraham's time. If that were true, and the Father was still in heaven, that meant TWO. The Jews mono-theism lie was being exposed by Jesus. The Jews wanted to kill him for pulling their spiritual pants down and revealing their shamefullness.
>>Who can imagine that God would have his inspired writers to foster such confusion?<<
Confusion? Father and Son is not confusing. Is Father and Mother confusing? Maybe to you, but to me, YHWH is Father and Son, the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The temple/tabernacle represented God. BOTH representations had TWO rooms in under ONE roof. Holy and Most Holy. Father and Son. The truth comes out in the end:
Rev 21:22
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
TWO. Father and Son. One who is head one in subjection.
>>To summarize: Scripture says in one place (Exodus 33:20)that anyone who sees "YHWH" will die, but it also says in another place (Exodus 24:1:-11) that Moses saw "YHWH." There's is no way around this contradiction.<<
Two DIFFERENT YHWH's. Simple. Father and Son. Father unseen. Son seen. First and Last.
>>To rebut this argument, Pomegranate will have to show why the "YHWH" in the one place is not the same as the "YHWH" in the other place--an impossible task, really.<<
Not really. Read the above. You'll see the truth if God wants you too. If not, the scales will remain.

Can Man See God and Live?

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