Can Man See God and Live?

by JosephAlward 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Not Perfect

  Hi,

  Now just why do either of you think this is an issue? We can't interview any of the parties that are quoted in the scriptures or the ones that wrote about the events. Are you both assuming that they were accurate in their writings? Who can know for a certainty? What's your point anyway? Why does it matter at all? If you want to explaine your points, don't debate, let me know WHY you think this has any impact on my everlasting life or my relationship with Jah or Jesus. I know that you will site what you have alread stated, but how does this impact me and other readers?
• 

  JosephAlward

  Not asks about the possibility of errors in the Bible and why some persons will debate the issue:

  "Why does it matter at all? ....let me know WHY you think this has any impact on my everlasting life or my relationship with Jah or Jesus. I know that you will cite what you have already stated, but how does this impact me and other readers?"

  My answer: If your faith is not based on the Bible and any truths that may or may not be found therein, then debates about inerrancy will not impact you in the slightest. However, if your faith depends on the stories in the Bible being generally true, then you should be very concerned about the overall accuracy of the Bible. If your perception of Jah or Jesus is influenced by something you've read in the Bible, and it turns out that that portion of the Bible is false, then you are essentially worshipping a false god. Surely that would impact you, wouldn't you agree? Thus, it is very important to know whether and where the Bible is in error. If you study it closely, you'll find that most of the stories about Jesus Mark wrote were patterned after events in the life of Elijah, Moses, David, and, of course, deeds by the Lord. The Marcan stories are fictional.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 

  pomegranate

  >>I think it's clear that even if there were a verse that read, "Moses looked into the face of God," Pom would claim that it was figure of speech of some sort, or if the Bible said that "Moses saw the eyes and nose on the face of God, Pom would conclude that the "face" that couldn't be seen by man was a metaphor for his "soul," or his mind, and that what really couldn't be "seen" (understood) was the mind of God.<<

  All of the things you would like to have the Bible say above ARE NOT in the Bible. What is in the Bible is explicitly clear. Face means FULL glory. "Back" means a small portion. That which cannot be seen in YHWH Son is the "FACE." Very simple.

  I see you have no comment on the easy text when read in context regarding the 70 elders disobedience and YHWH NOT rasing his hand to them for DISOBEYING a command. Your point is sunk on that text. If you are an honest man, you will never use that text again to support YOUR contradiction.

  >>No matter what, Pom will never admit there's a error in the Bible.<<

  I would admit if YOU had proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. You are dancing in the shadows. I have given ample proof that YOU are wrong regarding the "70 elders" text. I see no rebuttal or admission of, "well pom, that does seem to be what is happening there."
  So who's zoomin who here?

  >> In fact, it may not be possible to construct a sentence about anyone seeing God's face that Pom wouldn't be able to explain away.<<

  Yeah, there would be. If YHWH GOD SAID you CAN see my face and yet live. What does YHWH say Joseph? HE WILL ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH:

  YOU CANNOT SEE MY FACE AND YET LIVE. PERIOD.

  That is as simple as it gets out of God's own mouth. So in a nutshell, you call God a liar by saying someone DID see his face, when He flatly denies that seeing his face is impossible.

  God says it can't be done, Mr Joseph supercedes God's own words and says man can, by twisting texts and removing context. Typical dark strategies.

  I believe God NOT you, a mere man.

  >>This is standard practice for those who have to believe that the Bible is inerrant in all of its parts, that there isn't an error anywhere.<<

  Standard practice?? I see you shuffled right around taking things out of context huh? That is the mockers code of ethic, remove the context. Isolate a few words.

  But hey, that's OK for you, continue to mock. The Bible said there would be guys like you.

  >>I think both Pom and and I have made the points we wished to make, so we can move on to some other topic. May I ask which Bible people use, and whether they believe it's inerrant?<<

  Yup. Your supposed contradictions are with YOU alone.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>If your perception of Jah or Jesus is influenced by something you've read in the Bible, and it turns out that that portion of the Bible is false,<<

  Of which you have FAILED to prove.

  >>then you are essentially worshipping a false god.<<

  Joseph worships a true God? Which God is that?

  >>Thus, it is very important to know whether and where the Bible is in error.<<

  Which I have yet to see with hard proof.

  >>If you study it closely, you'll find that most of the stories about Jesus Mark wrote were patterned after events in the life of Elijah, Moses, David, and, of course, deeds by the Lord. The Marcan stories are fictional.<<

  Joseph's man made opinion. Of which HE is entitled to.
• 

  pomegranate

  Deut 4:11,12
  11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.

  Deut 5:4-5
  4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.

  Face to face = figure of speech.

  Simple.
• 

  JosephAlward

  I've made the point in another post that the editors of the Bible often selected text or oral tradition from several sources, and these sources often contradicted each other. I've provided evidence of two authors in the flood story, and noted that two or more authors were at work in the two stories of creation in Genesis. The editors were less interested in presenting a completely consistent picture than they were in not offending those with different traditions.

  The two verses below from Deuteronomy are examples of contradictions which were overlooked by the editors:

  Deut 5:4-5
  4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.

  Deut 4:11,12
  11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.

  Now, Pom argues that these two verses prove that "face to face" couldn't possibly mean what it says, and there will be no way for me to prove he's not right. However, readers should note that the principal weapon Pom uses in his argumens is that the Bible HAS to be correct because (he thinks) it is the word of God; therefore, any apparent error is really not an error. For example, if the Bible said a king died in battle, but it said elsewhere he didn't die in battle, Pom would argue that the first verse MUST have meant that the king "died" a spiritual death, say.

  It's interesting to watch the fundamentalists twist themselves into pretzels in their attempts to explain away every single instance of Bible error, inconsistency, or contradiction. The other interesting thing is this: The inerrantist, as he continues to put forth "explanations" for apparent error, he becomes increasingly MORE certain that his faith is correct--no matter how absurd the explanations are. Thus, engaging in debate with skeptics is a very powerful faith-building exercise for the die-hard inerrantist. The primary benefit to the skeptic in engaging in debate with this brand of Christian is that the debates are often on display for viewing by those who are beginning to question their faith and need some help in separating the fake from the real, the truth from the lies. I do what I do for those people.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 

  pomegranate

  So what's YOUR real truth Joseph?
• 

  tell all

  Both scriptures about seeing GOD are correct. When Moses saw GOD, he saw him in his "HUMANOID STATE" but never seen him in his "ANGELIC STATE" because if he did, he would die.