Can Man See God and Live?

by JosephAlward 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

JosephAlward

The god in Exodus 24:1-11 who was seen by Moses is called "YHWH" in the ancient scriptures, and it is this same "YHWH" who says in Exodus 33:20 that no one may see him and live. According to Pomegranate, the ancient authors used the exact same name for two different beings, "YHWH" for the most exalted, unseeable, god, and "YHWH" for Pomegranate's imagined "Jesus YHWH," making it virtually impossible for anyone to ever know which of the two the authors were referring to.
Pom implies that this isn't iimpossible, that he knows we should read "YHWH" as "Jesus YHWH," and when instead to read it as "the unknowable, exalted and supreme Father YHWH." Each time Pom sees "YHWH" he evidently attempts systematically to apply to rule to decide, if he can, which of the two meanings apply. What is this rule, Pom? When scripture shows the tetragrammaton "YHWH," what rule does you use to decide which of the two gods it refers to? How does you know that the "YHWH" Moses saw was the forgiving one? For example, what about the "YHWH" in Genesis 2? Which one was that, and how do you know? Which one was it in Exodus 24, and how do you know?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
JosephAlward

My apologies for my carelessness; in the previous post, a couple of sentences were mangled badly. They should read,
Pom implies that this isn't impossible, that he knows when we should read "YHWH" as "Jesus YHWH," and when instead to read it as "the unknowable, exalted and supreme Father YHWH." Each time Pom sees "YHWH" he evidently attempts to apply some rule to decide which of the two meanings should be attached to the tetragrammaton.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

John 10:30,31
30 I and the Father are one."
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
John 5:23
23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Simple. Honor the Son as God YHWH. Honor the Father as God YHWH. Honor then JUST THE SAME. NO restrictions. They are both God YHWH.
Another point for you to consider. YHWH is not mentioned ONCE in any of the original Greek manuscripts of the NT, where in the original OT it is mentioned thousands of times. Why?
John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me.
The YHWH of the OT (The Word of God) when "emptied out" left the name YHWH and the nature of YHWH behind to become a man named Jesus Christ by the Father heaven. New life. New name. Same guy. Only in a diferent "body."
Duotheism answers most of your supposed "contradictions," but you care not to see...
Oh well.
pomegranate

PS.
Hey Joseph...you see that little pencil and paper icon on the top right of each post? If you click on that you can edit a previous post (as long as it is yours) rather than rewrite something.
Tata.
JosephAlward

Pom tells us that he knows that the "god" Moses saw was "Jesus YHWH" who allows people to see him, not the "Father YHWH" who will kill anyone who sees his face. But, Pom hasn't answered my question:
When scripture shows the tetragrammaton "YHWH," what rule do you use to decide which of the two gods it refers to? How do you know that the "YHWH" Moses saw was the forgiving one? For example, what textual or linguistic evidence do you look for, and what criteria do you apply, in order to determine which is which?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

>>"Father YHWH" who will kill anyone who sees his face.<<
Man cannot handle the sheer magnifience and glory of the TOTALLY unfathomable majestic Father God. You make Him out to be a murderer. Regarding the Father, one cannot even look at his LITTLE TOE without full demise. The Father cannot be seen PERIOD without dire consequences. It is ALWAYS the Son YHWH that was seen.
The one that is always talking to Moses is Jesus YHWH (The Word of God), NOT the Father. Why do you think Christ is called the "Word of God?" Because HE'S the one that did all the talking in the OT, HE was the one speaking when it says, "Then the LORD (YHWH) said." The words of God come from the Word of God, because Christ is the One who spoke the words. Pretty simple. The Father has done absolutely NOTHING in relation to dealing with man besides the initial creation, and the resurrection of his Son after his death. Everything else has been handed over to the Son.
>>But, Pom hasn't answered my question:
When scripture shows the tetragrammaton "YHWH," what rule do you use to decide which of the two gods it refers to?<<
Simple. Christ is the Word of God. Everytime in the OT you see God speak, the Word of God spoke, that being Christ. Also, Christ himself says that EVERYTHING has been handed over to HIM. The Father has given the Son full charge of EVERYTHING since the rebellion in heaven, all the way to the full reconcilliation of all creation in Revelation. Then everything goes back in charge fully under the Father.
Matt 11:27
27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father.
John 13:3
3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power,
So with simplicity, Jesus is the Word of God, EVERTIME God spoke, it was the Word speaking. ALL things, EVERYTHING is in JESUS power, the Father sits back and watches his Son salvage that which was corrupted. The WHOLE shootin' match Bible is Jesus doing HIS thing as the Father LET's him do. Jesus inspired the whole BOOK to be written. HE is the author of the Mosaic Law. HE IS THE ONE who is the Messiah. He is the ONE the Father is letting save that which would be lost.
The Father has been jointly responsible for the initial creation of all things, and for the resurrection of his Son after death and for permitting all things to be in Christ's full power and responsibility.
Other that that, He's been a spectator.
>>How do you know that the "YHWH" Moses saw was the forgiving one?<<
Because he lived through seeing a part of him (his back, not [FULL Glory, face.] As if God has a front, back and face) If that WAS the Father, Moses would be a goner. Man is a "perishable" species, and would collapse under this Being of gigantic proportions in everyway. We would be like an ice cube in a hot frying pan, and that example is ridiculously short coming. Words can't explain or communicate it. The Son also forgave the elders who went up in disobedience, as the Bible plainly states, and the forgiving one did not strike them FOR THE DISOBEDIENCE, not the "seeing" of YHWH Son's partial glory, of which they OBVIOUSLY did.
>>For example, what textual or linguistic evidence do you look for, and what criteria do you apply, in order to determine which is which?<<
See the above. It's Christ ALL THE WAY. The Father is so huge, so powerful, so uncomprehensible, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to even condescend in any way shape or form, AND THAT WOULD INCLUDE EVEN SPEAKING TO MAN. The universe is a dust speck in the Father's house. He CANNOT deal with us. If the Father did deal with us, I would suspect it would not be pretty. God is a complementary two, just as the male and female are a complimentary two. The Father is the God that CANNOT and WILL NOT condescend, the Son is the one the CAN condescend and DID condescend. NOT because he HAD to, but because HE wanted to.
The beginning and the end. The Alpha and the Omega. The First and Last. The Holy and The Most Holy. They are the ROCK.
Such is my God.
JosephAlward

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Exodus 33:20….."And ….Moses SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL....and upon the nobles of the children of Israel he (YHWH) laid not his hand." (Exodus 24:1-11)
Pom earlier argued that there are two different YHWH’s here; one is the Father, the other the Son; the former is the one speaking in Exodus 33, the latter--the forgiving one--is the one in Exodus 24, and that therefore there is no contradiction. So, there are two different YHWHs here, according to Pom.
Unfortunately for Pom, he evidently forgot that he once (Wednesday) believed there were two different YHWHs in Exodus, because NOW (Thursday) he says that since the creation, the only God who ever spoke or interacted with man was the SAME person, Jesus YHWH! Here are Pom’s self-convicting words:
“Everytime in the OT you see God speak, the Word of God spoke, that being Christ….So with simplicity, Jesus is the Word of God, EVERYTIME God spoke, it was the Word speaking.”
So, Pom, according to you, it must have been “Jesus YHWH” who was speaking when he said, “Thou canst not see MY face,” and it was that SAME “Jesus YHWH” who allowed Moses to see him. Thus, Exodus contradicts itself, and therefore the Bible is in error.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

"And he said, Thou canst not see my FACE: for there shall no man see me [the FACE, FULL GLORY], and live." (Exodus 33:20….."And ….Moses SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL [NOT THE FACE, OBVIOUSLY See Ex. 33:20]....and upon the nobles of the children of Israel he (YHWH) laid not his hand." (Exodus 24:1-11)
See the bold above?
Ex 33:20-23
20 But," he said [talking to Moses], "you cannot see MY FACE, for no one may see me [MY FACE] and live."
Notice NO ONE MAY SEE ME meant FACE. See? FACE. Which means FULL GLORY. EVEN with Christ, his FULL GLORY (FACE) can NOT be seen by man and yet live. But his "BACK" a small portion of his glory CAN and COULD be seen by who he deemed worthy to see him.
21 Then the LORD [YHWH Son] said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and YOU WILL SEE MY BACK; BUT MY FACE MUST NOT BE SEEN."
Get it? It's really quite elementary Joseph. Or do you get confused by the elementary things of God, like his face and back?
>>Pom earlier argued that there are two different YHWH’s here; one is the Father,
Here???? Where? Talking to Moses? I never said that. I said two YHWH's exist. YOU'RE saying "here" which I gather YOU mean talking to Moses. I don't see two YHWH's talking in the context do you? There's only one talking. That one is the Son. The Father watches and listens. He exists. Or can't you fathom the Son talking and the Father watching?
>>the other the Son; the former is the one speaking in Exodus 33,<<
I never said ANYWHERE, the Father spoke at all. I said two YHWH's exist. PERIOD. The Father speaking is YOUR words and YOUR WORDS ALONE, yet you are saying they are mine. Nice trick Joseph.
Jesus YWHW does ALL the speaking in the Bible, as HE is the Word of God. ALL of it. Simple. The Father exists and let's the Son run the show. Simple simple.
>>the latter--the forgiving one--is the one in Exodus 24,>>
Ex 33 and 24 are both Jesus YHWH, as I HAVE ALWAYS maintained.
>>Unfortunately for Pom, he evidently forgot that he once (Wednesday) believed there were two different YHWHs in Exodus,<<
Forgot? I never forgot. There are two YHWH's as I have always said. Re-read this thread. That's all I have been saying.
>>because NOW (Thursday) he says that since the creation, the only God who ever spoke or interacted with man was the SAME person, Jesus YHWH!<<
You haven't proved anything here except confirmed exactly what I have always said. That Christ is the one doing it all, and the Father has given all over to his Son. The Father exists and yet does not deal with man in either word or deed. The Son deals with man. Simple.
The Father has given all into the Sons hands. All.
>>Here are Pom’s self-convicting words:
“Everytime in the OT you see God speak, the Word of God spoke, that being Christ….So with simplicity, Jesus is the Word of God, EVERYTIME God spoke, it was the Word speaking.”<<<
What the heck are you talking about? This is what I always said, and you're saying I said something different? You are one weird 50 year old. Cut and paste anything else different which you are claiming, the above proves nothing. You don't have one sentence where I said the Father spoke or dealt with man at all. People that twist like this are the ones who cannot accept that their man wisdom of "Bible contradictions" can be answered with a logical explaination. The truth of Duotheism answers most of yours.
>>So, Pom, according to you, it must have been “Jesus YHWH” who was speaking when he said, “Thou canst not see MY face,” and it was that SAME “Jesus YHWH” who allowed Moses to see him. Thus, Exodus contradicts itself, and therefore the Bible is in error.<<
Look at the man twist and writhe. I love when I see this happen. You are just like Jehovah's Witnesses, only you take pride in the darkness, they just hide in the darkness.
See the above. I covered YOUR contradiction up there.
JosephAlward

Pom may have misunderstood, what I was saying in earlier posts, to I will attempt to clarify my position. It will be simpler if I summarize what I believe Pom's position is, then if I misunderstand it, he will correct it.
Pom believes that there are two YHWHs, one which is seen only under penalty of death; this is the YHWH which is responsible for creation, and is the one who never speaks to men, or interacts with them.
The other YHWH is the one who can be seen--according to Pom. Now, Pom says that the YHWH who speaks in Exodus 24 is the SAME one who speaks in Exodus 33.
Now, assuming that Pom agrees with my characterization of his beliefs, let me present my argument again.
Exodus 33 says that no man may see God, but Exodus 24 says that Moses saw God; this is a contradiction. Here is the evidence:
"And he said, Thou canst not see my FACE: for there shall no man see me and live." (Exodus 33:20)
"...they SAW the god of Israel..."(Exodus 24:1-11)
Pom tries to escape this contradiction by arguing that we should assume that the words "shall no man see me and live" actually mean, "shall no man see [my face] and live." Thus, in Pom's mind, because Exodus 24 doesn't specifically say the Moses saw God's FACE, there's no contradiction.
Pom, do you REALLY believe the Exodus author wanted his readers to believe that Moses didn't see God's face? If that's what he wanted us to believe, wouldn't he have said so? If not, why not?
Pom wants to argue that death only comes if one sees God's face, but the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible does say that if one sees God's face, death follows, but it does not say that's the ONLY way you will die; the Bible ALSO says that if anyone sees God, period, one dies. Seeing God's face is just ONE way of seeing the God, not the only way.
Moses saw God, but Moses didn't die, so the Bible is in error. Now, assuming that you don't accept the argument above, let me provide this supplementary argument:
Exodus said that Moses SAW God. Why should we assume the writer meant for us to believe that Moses didn't see his face, as well as the rest of him? In fact, the writer makes it clear that WHATEVER it was that Moses DID see, it ordinarily would have been enough to God to administer the death penalty, otherwise why would the author tell us that God chose not to lay his hand on Moses? Thus, Moses must have done something that ordinarily would have earned him the death penalty. The Exodus author seems to be telling us here that Moses is no ordinary man, and that's why God chose to spare him. Nevertheless, Exodus 24 contradicts Exodus 33. What the writer SHOULD have said is that no ordinary man can see God, but he would allow the most holy man of Old Testament times to do so. The writer didn't say this, so the writer was wrong about God killing any man who sees him.
logical

Wow all this over a simple thing.
Pom, where DO you get your strange ideas from?
Joe, no man shall see Jah's FACE and live. Simple. Moses saw his back, but not his face. Its not that difficult to figure out. There is only one YHWH.

Can Man See God and Live?

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