Why would an "informed apostate" change unless they were Gumbyfied??
Absolutely!
LOL! That was priceless mini. Appropo even.
sKally
Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?
by BizzyBee 122 Replies latest jw friends
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sf
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Rosalee
jgnat:
i guess you would be considered an opposer. you are given some latitude because you were never considered a Witness. i have the feeling you disguise your mission quite well at meetings, for your husband's sake.
who knows, maybe someday you'll be proWitness :)
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Frank75
What does that have to do with substantiating a claim made.
As I've already noted, rosalee can't. She can give her opinion of course, but that doesn't hold much water. Your challenge to substantiate, however, was out of line. No-one should be dared in to revealing their personal information on a board.
jgnat: I have come to respect you as an intelligent, compassionate and understanding person through your depth of involvement here and the types of persons you show an interest in. However this last go around is calling into question that observation. You need to slow down and re-read what I have posted.
This recent topic is somewhat mute now as Rosalee has cleared the confusion. However I am not mistaken what she said above:
rosalee - While some apostates may sin against the Holy Spirit, some find they have just been side tracked for a while.
Even though she has back tracked (a typical dub trait as can be seen from 120 years of WT publications) the above statement has still been made that apostates find their way back to the dubs. This is not true to my knowledge.
As far as my challenge being out of line, you show again your inability to comprehend complex sentences. I asked for substantiation such as a name of such "an apostate" who came back to the dubs. An absolutely harmless way to do that would be to name them. She then said "I am one of them". I only suggested the name/local as one means of substantiating the claim whether it was her or whoever.
Likewise what I think you fail to grasp through all of this is what I will state again. If an apostate had returned to the dubs they would not get in troubled if someone on the Internet said, "Bill Watson from SF Bay West congregation was df'd as an apostate for 10 years and now he is back.
Take the cork out of your ass and your rose coloured glasses and answer, Why would they be in trouble for that?
As far as being out of line, you give no sound reasons why a person would not divulge his personal info on a board. Lots of us have, do and will continue to do it. Because we have nothing to fear. But again my challenge was to start the thought process for Rosalee that was started for me when I was met with the same challenge years ago. You know that people in East Germany were told that the Berlin Wall was to keep westerners out of their paradise too. Only the smart ones figured out that it was really there to keep them in. Rosalee may learn too if shown the way.
I know that no JW would reveal their name here because they know deep inside they would be in a crap load of trouble. First and foremost being here is a sin for them, however even if one did reveal their name how could a body of elders prove that a person with the name like "Big Tex" who said he is who he is, prove that it was REALLY him posting on this site? If he denied it, they could do nothing really unless they had other reason to df him. (Dubs don't do that if confronted because they think the elders have magic powers and know the truth magically)
Use the good sense the cosmos has given you to think these things thru before you speak!
Simple question, 75 . If I choose to take "sides" with an apologist, and challenge a dedicated member of this board, am I being "disloyal" to the cause?
I do not fully follow what your objective or reference is here. What cause is that?
Although you have ignored all of my direct questions (had you taken the time perhaps we wouldn't be at this juncture) I will respectfully attempt to address yours.
i.e. So tell me what fear should Rosalee have? ... I am keen to know how exactly you would argue that revealing their names would be harmful to her first of all or them second of all.
you presume to counsel me on how you are considered by a religion I was a part of for 40 years .... Did you even read what the KS book says? .......and others directed at Big Tex
You can take sides with whoever you want. I have agreed on occasion with a sound position that some apologists have taken. There is no shame here, as I was not talking about my view of your being apostate! You can't be that daft!
What you are failing to acknowledge, although you take some comfort in that Rosalee doesn't call you an apostate (for whatever that is worth), what I said represents the position of the JW fundy community as a whole and particularly the elders.
The purpose of JWD whether stated openly or not is to help open the eyes of dubs and to erode their attachment to the Watchtower Cult and free them. With over 12,000 posts you are essentially a pillar of that cause although I do not attempt to pigeon hole you.
Therefore as i have said and you obviously haven't comprehended, you are associating here with apostates, you consider yourself a child of god and are not supportive of JW theology therefore the things you say are generally geared to undermine confidence that dubs have in the JW organization and leadership. That makes you an apostate in the JW definition.
The dubs call Christendom apostate. Was Christendom ever baptised and dedicated JW's? Can you not grasp the simplicity.
The only distinction that I pointed out for you is that you could not be DF'd. However there is nothing stopping the elders in your boyfriends congregation from whispering in everyone's ear, or even announcing from the platform, to shun you anyway.
We had such a person (familiar, not studied or baptised but knew the apostate position) who lived in our territory who used to come to the meetings. The elders eventually got a restraining order to keep him away, they made announcement and yes they said he was apostate.
I am going back to spend some time in the sun and sip a good porter in the hot tub now, so try to absorb some reality in the meantime. And let's not fall out over this eh?
Frank75
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Frank75
Thanks Busy Bee for understanding where I was at least coming from.
You are perhaps inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to rosalee. I on the other hand believe she knew what she said about apostates (note the theme and title of this thread) and since she believes the WT view is the right one, she naturally believed (until sobriety set in) that wayward ones could and would return.
Logical conclusion for a brainwashed dub. You see it is working. the freeze is melting.
Since we're agreed I'm not Apostate, does the society have a label for people like me?
Not sure what the WTS would call you, but I would say you are 'innoculated.'
jgnat would be and is considered an apostate or a supporter of apostates as I have pointed out with reference.
In the WT world a person who commits a gross sin, and they consider speaking against the WT a very serious "gross sin", is labeled by the "ACT" they are said to have committed if their is a term to define them.
Therefore, baptized or not, a person who has committed adultery, is called an adulterer, fornicated - a fornicator, committed homosexuality - a homosexual, stolen - a thief, killed someone - a murderer, and finally "fought against the org" - Apostate.
The dubs take a softer stand with those who are not baptized, but depending on the circumstances, not much of a softer stand. However when it comes to apostasy the rule is evenly applied.
Trust me on this.
Frank75
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Rosalee
Actually, Frank, Christianity WAS dedicated to God. They became Christendom when they failed to recognize Jesus took his throne in 1914, and to conform to true Christianity. It's because of this that they are considered apostate, in Jesus' eyes.
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jgnat
Frank75, you have rushed in and judged me without fully comprehending what I wrote. I'm not bothering with your strident accusations any further. Talk to the hand.
Rosalee, thank you for answering my question. You are right, I would be labelled an "opposer", perhaps a little deluded or misinformed, no? Since I have been properly labelled, I am given a polite nod, and "We miss you at the meetings", but my words might as well be from Bart's teacher, they have as much impact. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0763024/
Mrs. Krabappel: Blah-blah, blah-blah, blah-blah-blah, blah-blah?
Bart: Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. Krabappel: Blah-blah, blah-blah, blah-blah-blah, blah-blah!
Bart: Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. Krabappel: Bart! You haven't been listening to a word I've said, have you?
Bart: Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. Krabappel: Well, then what did I say?
Bart: Uh...”straighten up and fly right?"
Mrs. Krabappel: [spluttering] Well, that was a lucky guess!I was treated quite differently when the ladies mistakenly took me for the visiting speaker's wife.
It's very important to me that I not be treated as a cardboard-cutout, a wall that words are bounced off of. I crave connection with people, mind to mind, a three-dimensional interaction where we come to understand each other. I've achieved it on very few occassions with the Witnesses, and only on non-religious subjects.
I wonder why that is? Why do any serious religious discussions descend so quickly in to slogans and quotes?
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Frank75
Actually, Frank, Christianity WAS dedicated to God. They became Christendom when they failed to recognize Jesus took his throne in 1914, and to conform to true Christianity. It's because of this that they are considered apostate, in Jesus' eyes.
You are errant my Querida. Christianity is and always has been dedicated to God thru Christ, Christendom is another entity of creeds, denominations and money making businesses like your Watchtower.
Secondly the Jehovah's Witness is mostly dedicated to the Watchtower not God and not really Christian at all. In other words a disciple, follower of him and obedient to his words.
I will give you an example that you are free to try an refute.
Matthew 18:15 which are the words of Jesus Christ that need not be minced or trivialised, says "if your brother (sister) commits a "SIN"" how are you to deal with the matter first according to those direct, simple and concise words of Gods son?
Is that what the WT teaches in their publications when a JW commits a sin? If you knew someone who sinned would it be ok for you to talk to them as Jesus said, they see their error and that is the end of it?
Frank75
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Frank75
jgnat - You are closer to being a dub than you think - later!
Frank75
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jgnat
That's funny, Rosalee. I missed that enthronement in 1914, too. There was nothing in the papers. I'm waiting for the trumpets, the flash across the sky, and the thunder before I bow my knee. Isaiah 45:23, Mark 13:25-26, Romans 14:11, Phl 2:10, Rev 14:2. I follow the bible, after all, not the pronouncements of imperfect men.
Do you have a line to the throne itself? Has Jesus told you that I have turned from him? Do you have the keys to the Lamb's Book of Life? (Rev 5:2) Your proclamation that Christendom is apostate is hurtful and dismissive of my fierce faith. I believe Jesus pulled me from the ditch twenty-plus years ago, and I will be forever grateful to Him. I could never turn aside.
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Rosalee
frank, i agree Christianity has always been dedicated to God. Christendom broke away from that when they refused to regognize Jesus' enthronement in 1914. True Christianity is still dedicated to serving Jehovah.