Infamous one's SMACKDOWN TIME:
good luck with your battle. lore, i suggest you let it end too... these guys are jerks.. i try to say that they have no proof either, they try to make me feel stupid... your responces just show me how close minded you guys are... i am not the stupid one the infamous one"
First of all I am not Perry. He is not me. I have never met the person until a few days ago on this thread. We just both happen to agree that the universe, earth and life thereon did NOT originate from nothing through some series of random events and lots of luck. We both also so happen to believe in Christ, as do approx two billion other people. So what's the problem with that?
But let's discuss just WHY God may allow these situations to exist for a moment anyway. While it is true that nobody enjoys suffering, pain and the like, it is also true that these conditions can help develop desirable qualities in the individuals that experience them. In fact the scriptures says that Jesus LEARNED OBEDIENCE and other desirable qualities through his difficult times and sufferings while on the earth. *If* God is the Creator of all things, and if he allowed his only begotten SON to take the beatings and persecution that he did, then obviously SOME GOOD can also be the result by allowing these less than desirable situations to exist today as well.
In support of this, James Chapter 1:2-4 tells the reader, "to consider it all joy when you meet with various trials, knowing that this tested quality of your faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." So once again we can see some value in God's eyes by allowing trialsome conditions and situations to exist. Just because we humans may not fully understand exactly WHY God has allowed certain things to take place, does not mean that he does not exist at all. This may be some kind of opportunity for humans to gain an inner strength, perhaps a greater appreciation for when life is better, free from all these problems plaguing mankind. When I had a very serious staph infection earlier last summer, I was very scared and worried for a few days. However, When I knew I made it out of the woods, safely, I was really happy to be alive. My appreciation had ACTUALLY GROWN through that experience. The existence OF these problems however, does not just automatically discount or deny God's VERY existence. At least not in my mind. HE has simply decided to allow these conditions to exist at this time, for reasons, that are not crystal clear to humans. And again, he has promised to permanently remove these negative features that affect life today.
Life would have hope. Eternal life under wonderful conditions is at least possible.
He asks that we search for Him, walk with Him and help others come to know about Him.
In return, everlasting life with no pain, no suffering or even death.
By throwing God out along with the WT Society, you are throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water.
And who wants to do THAT?
Isn't God Awesome?
by Perry 450 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vinny
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AlmostAtheist
>>As Einstein astutely stated, "God does not play dice with the universe". Though we cannot see God, we can see EVIDENCE that he does indeed exist.
It was an astute statement, but it had nothing to do with belief in god. As I stated earlier, he was responding to some peers and their feeling that the universe may have truly random elements, effects without causes. He was metaphorically saying that this isn't the case. He wasn't truly speaking of god here anymore than he was truly speaking of dice.
Either you disagree with my assessment of the context, you missed it earlier, or you are disingenuously misquoting Einstein to make it appear that he supports you. Or some fourth thing I don't know about. Can you tell me which it is?
Dave
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Vinny
I am not trying to ignore you Dave. But the only trouncing I have taken on this thread was last night, by my WIFE. I have spent just TOO MUCH TIME on this thread and in debate mode here as well as many other places dealing with JW's. I made a definite promise last night to wrap things up today. Am trying to get to as many posts as I possibly can. Whatever is left over, well that's life.
So do not feel avoided. I think you know me better than that. There is not a question on this earth I would ever avoid. All of my posts deal directly with other people's questions. Again and again.
Einstein was agnostic. His words not mine. (quoted by alan f on page 17).
Einstsin, not an atheist and being agnostic stated, "God does not play dice with the universe".
Not being an atheist, he believed that some kind of intellectual force was responsible for the things we see today.
I’m not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws.”
and
But because he flat-out stated that he was NOT an atheist, along with the two quotes above, along with many other quotes already posted, along with his "God does not play dice with the universe", I believe the context of how I am using the quote along with the general characterization that Einstein beleived in some higher power is correct.
Though I clearly do not believe that all things came to exist through random chances, without the guiding hand of intellect, as my many arguments cleaarly reflect.
Not even close.
Back to my replies.
Best,
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AlmostAtheist
Thanks for the clarification on Einstein's words. My point was not that he was an atheist or wasn't, but simply that his "god/dice" quote was not a commentary on his beliefs and shouldn't be used to suggest it was. Perhaps you're only using the quote as a touchpoint, as a recognizable connection to Einstein's general "maybe there is, maybe there ain't" agnostic beliefs. If so, then it seems fair to me.
In any event, I hope you did check out the SeattleNiceGuy posts I tossed to you. I asked for your response, but I'd much rather you invested your time in reading, than in posting. I know it's not my call, do as you wish. But it's my hope.
Dave
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Vinny
Paralipominom said:..."Anyone else think Perry stopped posting because he was getting embarrassed by Vinny's behavior?"
So hilary, do you believe all things, the universe, earth, life upon the earth arose from NOTHING AT ALL? A big ole BANG, right into an earth with many amazing, harmonious and complex systems with atmosphere, water cycles, microbial, spinning and roataing at just the right speeds for life, all without any guiding hand of intellect?
That through this big ole BANG some primordial soup-like conditions resulted allowing some process where life can arise from lifeless? Where we have polymers to little fishes, to human brains and beyond?
Then if you believe THIS, then you my friend are the proud wearer of a red vette on your forehead; complete with pain job, door handles, fine tuned engine, gas and keys.
Go ahead put up or stop whining.
Here, I will help you so you can't be too confused:
1- Hilary, how does life evolve from lifeless matter? Please tell us.
2- Hilary, how does it feel believing that red corvette simply could arrive all on its own since universe, life and earth (all far more complex) all arrived on their own with no intelligence involved?
3- Hilary, if its true that all these things just happened on their own, why cannot the same science and technology which sends folks to the moon, create ANY LIFE (even the simplest of living things) from non-living matter today?
4- Hilary, what about the universal fact of life PRINCIPLE that EVERY BEGINNING MUST HAVE A CAUSE CAUSE? What does THAT do for atheism?
5- Hilary, what does it say to you when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT.
"You may view this as a 'cop out' on my part, that is your perogative" (yes we DID)....
Name calling, no arguments, thinking they are so intellectual when they are in actuality just BLOWING SMOKE. -
Vinny
WINDING IT ALL DOWN FOLKS:
MORE ATHEISTS TAKEDOWNS:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/134488/2398037/post.ashx#2398037 -
Vinny
FINAL POST FOR SURE:
Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 216.
Vinny -
LittleToe
I've spent a few days wondering exactly what emotional reaction this thread has been bringing out in me, since its been such a long time since I've experienced it. I've finally discovered that its acute embarrassment at the ignorance of another...
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diamondblue1974
I've spent a few days wondering exactly what emotional reaction this thread has been bringing out in me, since its been such a long time since I've experienced it. I've finally discovered that its acute embarrassment at the ignorance of another...
Thats when you finally get over the extreme mental exhaustion of reading complete drivel with poor spacings!
LT: Nice to see your back safely fella, my hangover has only just subsided!
Gary
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Abaddon
Vinny
Nice to see I can still jerk your strings puppet boy. You really are 0wned. As I am bored I will feed the troll - that's you Einstein.
Again I get the standard bilge; Vinny basically supposes if he can't imagine how it happened an imaginary creature that he has no proof of pops out of where did it.
As a true coward, he doesn't really answer the flaws in his argument. As we all know, Vinny uses special pleading to try and get out of his insistence complexity cannot come about without a designer, by insisting the designer was always there. All we get in response is;
Like it, don't like it. Believe it, don't believe it; whatever the case, there is no special pleading here. This makes sense and is a reasonable concept to myself and to many others. The Supreme Being would be the one and only exception.
Which is WHY it is called 'special pleading'. I can't believe you're enough of an ass to actual validate the definition of special pleading when you're insisting you're not using it. It's obvious you really don't want to or can't understand a simple concept like that; no wonder you have a hard time understanding evolution.
You then show your level of ignorance;
that which contradicts the Bible in any way cannot be correct.
Presuppostionalist. And either through wilful deciet or equally wilful igorance, a liar. There are trees still growing in California which were alive when the Earth is meant to have been subjected to the Flood; just one fact of many that show the Bible to be inaccurate. There are hundreds of others, but as you will not respond (or rather, cannot respond) to dendrochronology in any concrete way, I'll not waste my time listing them.
Back to your untrammeled ignorance of evolution;
Again, by some accidental, casual, fortuitous, stroke of luck?
Unable to actually argue the science (which shows evolutionary progress is so statistically removed from accidental as to make any who claim it is know-nothing ass clowns), he makes another fallacious argument known as a straw man; Vinny, this has nothing to do with the Wizard of Oz, it means as you cannot deal with the real evolutionary argument you lie about what the evolutionary argument is.
It bypasses the "Every beginning has a Cause" universal principle.
LOL. Keep it up! You just contradicted yourself again!
Folks, this is one reason why the internet is so coooool, everything that is being said, is in PRINT. Just reading what our little atheists have to say is LAUGHABLE here. I feel sorry for them. Seriously. Poor little atheists. They are completely stuck in mud with their beliefs.
As I have already told you Vinny, the only reason people are bothering with you is that you make an excellent sounding board for showing how utterly mindless some religious people are as regards their beliefs. The fact you really do not understand how badly you are exposed is just an added amusement.
******I have stated more than once that the bible is rarely used in my arguments. It is not needed. What I have clearly shown is that the bible only collaborates when I say that the Supreme Creator had no beginning and needs no beginning.
You cannot prove the Bible is relaible, therefore any claim made based on the assumption the Bible supports god having no begining is not relaible. It's just your opinion. Thus your claim you do not use special pleading is invalid.
Christ threw out the money changers. Christ exposed the hypocritical religious leaders. Christ exposed their false teachings. He called them blind guides and offsprings of vipers and other things similar because they were just that.
But you're the one being a liar and a hypocrite Vinny
I do not use foul language anywhere at anytime. I do laugh a lot, but that is because lame atheist teachings are laughable.
Again, deceit. I never said you swore, I just said you don't behave like a Christian following Christ's example should. Underlining your conceit and hypocritical behaviour using your own beliefs is simply an appropriate way of dealing with you.