Eyem ann atheeest anda eyem knot verry smeart at toll..............
Athiests
by BR25 64 Replies latest jw friends
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Vinny
"Atheists are the smartest ones here"
BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAWAAWWHAAHAHAHAH
Yet even though intelligent scientists (who can send man to the moon and back, make computer chips etc) cannot make even the SIMPLEST life form from dead matter, while in a controlled setting, you then want to sell us on things like the HUMAN BRAIN just happend to be the result of this same DEAD MATTER, TO PRIMORDIAL SOUP, TO POLYMERS ***WITHOUT ANY INTELLIGENCE AT ALL***.
SAY WHAT?
That the EARTH itself with all of its perfectly balanced features such as different atmospheric layers, with protective ozone layer, with just the correct amount of gases needed to sustain life. (.Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, argon, water vapor and other smaller trace gasses), water cycles, weather systems, eco systems, food chain systems, microbial systems, photosynthesis, tides due to a perfectly located and spinning and sized moon at the precisely needed location and too many others to list here, just happened to be the result of an unguided BIG BANG.
Your arguments have no hope at all. THEY HAVE NO LEGS AT ALL.
A RED CORVETTE FOR ATHEISTS:
Let's imagine that you are completely alone in the middle of North Dakota somewhere, surrounded by nothing but mountainous wilderness, no people, no buildings, just you alone and the wilderness for hundreds of miles. And right there in the middle of it all you suddenly walk up to a brand new looking Red Chevrolet Corvette, unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, a full tank of gas and one road taking you out. Now, it would in my opinion be nothing short of preposterous, actually INSANE to even entertain the mere possibility if someone were to try telling you that THAT brand new looking Red Corvette just happened to get there, on its own, without any intelligent designer behind it whatsoever. That somehow, some way it just happened to be some product of "blind chance" without any intellectual forces behind that ready-to-drive automobile.
That all the parts just "happened" to come together absolutely perfectly through some kind of Big BANG/Abiogenesis/Evolutionary etc etc.. series of events. A cosmic primordial "soup" if you will that eventually turned into that beautiful automobile, ready to take off. Who of us out here would even consider such an outrageous suggestion as this? Okay sure, these processes just happened to turn into eight perfectly designed and gapped spark plugs, placed precisely into their sockets, tightened down exactly as needed. The spark plug wires too just happened to fall into place connecting to all eight plugs, while coincidentally also connecting to a computer chip, a continuously self calibrating one (that happened to just come together o its own by the way), designed to tell it exactly how often to fire those eight perfectly placed spark plugs. Of course, the steering wheel just by CHANCE happened to be in the right location, while also connecting the front-end with it's front axle, ball joints, tie rods and perfectly synchronizing the movement of the tires. The tires by the way also all happen to be perfectly sized, with identical tread, perfect air pressure (how did air pressure even get in there by the way??) made of just the right rubber material, while perfectly balanced and with perfect alignment all by itself. All along the way to turn those tires somehow a power steering pump made itself, with belt and fluid with it's case and cap filed just where it needs to go. The doors so one can get inside the car are perfectly fitted and actually open with the lift of a handle. An armrest also somehow conveniently evolved, while still looking and smelling brand new. Of course rather than just look at this beauty, it actually runs and will even automatically shift into different gears because low and behold there is a TRANSMISION too. One that somehow and some way just perfectly connected with the motor which somehow and some way has eight pistons, a crank shaft, fuel injectors, cam shaft, a perfectly sealed even (though removable) head so that the transmission actually has something to shift for. Of course you need high octane, fresh, clean, combustable GASOLINE to run the entire thing, but low and behold it has a full tank of just that. How bout that? (And how's the gas TANK get there?) In fact believe it or not, the fuel tank has a fuel line as well, that just so happens to be connected to a fuel filter which leads it right to eight perfectly fitted and located fuel injectors, which somehow and some way are attached to the ENGINE itself that is still perfectly situated in the front of that automobile that just happened to be formed by itself through through blind CHANCE.
Unbelievable there is also a hood, with an outside and inside hood latch that allows you to look at the motor that evolved on its own. All the while fitting perfectly and symmetrically into perfect place. In another incredible act of CHANCE, there is a gas pedal too that when pressed carefully lets that amazingly complex machine (that just happened by series chances) to move forward. Of course once you did get in it and realized this amazing machine can actually take you wherever you wish to go, you have another serious problem; whoops, how do you STOP IT? Big problem. Well lookey here!... there is a BRAKE PEDAL right next to the gas pedal that just so happens to connect to four disc brakes that also are perfectly hitched to brake rotors, and calipers that are coincidentally just perfectly hooked up with those perfectly rounded and symmetrical tires that we already discovered earlier. And through some act of evolutionary coincidence, this braking system has a MASTER CYLINDER that just also happens to have the perfectly positioned brake lines, filled with just the correct kind and correct amount of brake fluid. Of course if it were instead power steering fluid, or transmission fluid or gasoline in them there brake lines it would not work one bit, and may even catch on fire, but since it has the exact consistency needed for brake fluid, it works like a charm. How bout that!
There are several clear windows to look out from as well. Sure need those; glad they just happened to FALL INTO PLACE where they did too. Pretty amazing how the elements and other external forces just happened to get that red shiny paint job only where it is and not on the windows, would have a problem there for sure. And guess what else, inside it has heat and ac and rear defrost and windshield wiper blades, a fuel gauge, temp gauge, tachometer with speedometer, with perfectly located knobs that even say heat and ac and wiper speeds. How did that get here on it's own? Amazing aint it? And for some strange reason it needs to have some little piece of metal to turn the thing on, I believe they call it a KEY. Low and behold THERE IS A KEY, with the exact correct notches already in the perfectly located steering wheel. How bout all that, what an amazing coincidence!
Obviously I could continue on with this for pages and pages folks. I am sure you can see the point. (Try as you may to AVOID the point), It would be silly, foolish, absurd, outrageous, strange, weird and just impossibly IGNORANT to believe ALL of these things just happened by blind chance, without any intelligence at all, creating one single, ready-to drive Red Chevrolet Corvette. If nobody on this board could be convinced of such a foolish idea with one automobile in the middle of nowhere, how then could people POSSIBLY believe that a FAR, FAR MORE complex universe and earth, filled with far more complicated life (than that single corvette) could possibly just happen by itself, through some evolutionary process, with absolutely no help from an intelligent source anywhere?
The reality is, I would have a better chance of selling somebody on that car that just formed by itself, through a Big Bang/abiogenesis (the supposed origination of life from lifeless matter) and then evolved with all the perfect pieces fitting together, than on the UNIVERSE and EARTH itself just happening to form themselves as well as all life forms upon the earth. A human being is far, far more complex that that car. With our immune systems, lymphatic systems, digestive systems, cardio systems with heart chambers and blood vessels, nervous systems, joints, muscles, tendons, brains with billions or neurons, eyes that see, ears that hear, nose that smells, fingers that feel, skin that sweats, mouth that tastes, chews and swallows. Feet, legs, knees that move and bend. Reproductive systems that can create new life etc etc on and on. The complexity of one human being puts that new Corvette to shame. Millions of time more complex. You get a scratch on that new car and you will visiting the body shop. Scratch or hurt yourself, and the body has the ability to actually heal itself. And you really hope to convince me it happened all by CHANCE, with no designer, no intelligence behind it all? Some primordial evolutionary soup like process, which resulted from a big ole BANG? We haven't even started discussing the complexity and incredible order of our UNIVERSE yet. Or the earth , how outstandingly complex yet perfectly harmonized it is. Photosynthesis, clouds and rain, the perfect tilt and rotational speed of the earth, perfect location of the sun, the moon, our orbit speed. The atmosphere, ozone layer, perfect amount of oxygen in the air. Gravity, food cycles, fire; all happened by blind chance? No intelligence required? Sorry atheists, but you are DEAD IN WATER here.
Lets talk about science for just a moment. The science where many get there beliefs that there is NO GOD, no maker because they cannot prove he exists. If science is so smart and such a trustworthy source, why cannot science then create life from non living matter? It has not been done. ANYWHERE, EVER. Not only can it not do such a thing as make life from non-living matter, even if all the parts are already there, in human form, animal form or any form, science cannot even PUT LIFE BACK to the BODY that just lost it prematurely through accidents, disease or any other disaster, or death through natural aging? With all the parts ALREADY TOGETHER, in front of these scientists, they are still helpless and cannot make LIFE exist. Yet they insist that ALL life as we see it today, just happened by some series of chances, without ANY help from any intelligent source. How reasonable is this? Let me answer that for you, IT'S NOT REASONABLE AT ALL.
This is why I believe in an Intelligent DESIGNER, a Creator rather than some abiogenesis/evolutionary/Big BANG series of processes resulting in all that we have today. It makes perfect sense. It is reasonable, it is logical and rational. To believe everything we see just happened BY ITSELF is none of those things in my sincere and honest opinion. Science cannot even feed the poor nor cure the worlds problems either. It has not even cured AIDS, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, alzheimer's, fixed global warming, the ozone layer and tens of thousands of other issues. And people wish to put their FULL TRUST in science when it comes to believing in a God or not? Sorry, I am not convinced and do not buy any of what they are selling. It is actually laughable to believe all things originated from nothing, all on their very own, without any intelligence behind it
When I look at the entire picture then, the fact that ANY kind of intelligent design around us today requires an intelligent designer. The simple truth that it would be absurd to try to explain a red corvette, a house or even a number 2 pencil (structured, purposeful things) as having just ARRIVED from out of nothingness. The facts that this earth, the universe and all upon them are very complex, very organized, highly structured and simply demanding in all reasonableness that an intelligent creator be the one responsible for such incredible, organized, purposeful DESIGN. That science itself cannot even create life out of non-living matter, nor from dead, former living matter and has far too many holes in its theories and is far from a source worth putting all trust in. Adding it all up for me then, I cannot get away from the inescapable conclusion that there IS A GOD responsible for all of the many features we see around us right now.
There is NO LOGIC and NO REASONABLENESS to atheist claims that all intelligent life and all organized systems and planets and stars galaxies just happened to fall into place without any intelligent force behind it.
There is just no way that it is even remotely, plausibly even MINUTELY possible that ALL of those marvelous features coming together at one time is due to a series of random, evolutionary, unguided CHANCES. When I look at an incredible startlit sky, in my mind there is not a chance that these all happened to be formed by a similar series of just aimless, arbitrary, haphazard, hit-or-miss events; a rolling of the dice if you will. They are extremely organized, finely tuned and intricate. They have clearly been PUT there and brought into motion by SOMEBODY.
The many systems that allow LIFE ON EARTH to exist likewise are organized, they are purposeful, intricate and again are finely tuned with other systems. AGAIN, by some merely accidental, casual, fortuitous, stroke of luck? That simply is not reasonable or logical to myself nor most other people. I have examined both sides of the evidence. For me there is just NO WAY these things happened without the guiding hand of intellect. For you and some others they may have come together by mere chance or in fact did come together by mere chance. I disagree. I have read the textbooks, have seen the arguments from scientists like Richard Dawkins. I consider such attempts to use abiogenesis/evolution as the explanation to explain how life arose to be far, far-fetched, and one giant stretch after another. Nothing has ever been duplicated. It bypasses the "Every beginning has a Cause" universal principle. It seeks to eliminate God altogether and then build around that premise in what many consider to be embarassing, feeble attempts of explanation. It fails miserably in my opinion and the opinion of billions of others as well.
You see folks, a perfectly spinning, tilted and orbiting earth did not EVOLVE, like you claim all OTHER LIFE on earth did. Neither did the atmosphere including ozone layer on earth, the water cycles, nor did the moon, sun and stars EVOLVE as you state in your explanations above. Nor did many BILLIONS of other things similar. Your argument, like I said, is LOSE LOSE for atheists. Again, this is why all atheists that you see today, anywhere, have a little red corvette stuck on their forehead. You cannot ignore it. It is always there.
In the simplest of terms then:
If through some cosmic "BIG BANG", ALL of the billions of stars in our own organized, orderly Milky Way Galaxy, as well as the BILLIONS of other organized and orderly Galaxies with their billions of stars came into existence. And if inside our very own organized and orderly galaxy, in what is known as our own orderly SOLAR SYSTEM, we have at just the right distance from our perfectly sized SUN, a perfectly located and sized planet EARTH, that also rotates at the perfect speed of 24 hours (needed to sustain life) as well as orbits around the sun at the perfect speed of 66,600 mph to keep it in that precise orbiting pattern and not sucked into the gravitational pull of the sun itself. And if this perfectly located, spinning and orbiting EARTH also has perfectly, purposeful and finely balanced SYSTEMS upon it (NEEDED TO SUSTAIN LIFE) such as different atmospheric layers, with protective ozone layer, with just the correct amount of gases needed to sustain life. (.Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, argon, water vapor and other smaller trace gasses). And if this same, orbiting, spinning, perfectly located EARTH with perfect atnosphere for life, located perfectly inside the universe with many billions of organized galaxies ALSO has a variety of unique, perfectly balanced SYSTEMS AND FEATURES such as water cycles, weather systems, eco systems, food chain systems, microbial systems, photosynthesis, tides due to a perfectly located and spinning and sized moon at the precisely needed location and too many others to list here.
And if UPON this perfectly located, spinning EARTH, with it's many perfectly balanced features and systems (found in the middle of an organized orderly universe), there also happens to be a variety of LIVING THINGS on this earth, with ITS OWN amazingly complex varieties of different systems such as digestive, circulatory, reproductive, elimination, immune, neurological etc etc, that just happened to originate from NOTHING AT ALL, through some BIG BANG, into an organized gargantuan UNIVERSE, with a perfectly located, spinning, orbiting EARTH located within that universe, that just so happened to come WITH the many FEATURES needed to support life, along with all these many varieties OF LIFE FORMS that supposedly arose from lifeless matter, primordial soup, to polymers, into complex living things including human BRAINS and beyond; then FOLKS if all this happened, ***ALL ON ITS VERY OWN***, without any INTELLECTUAL SOURCE anywhere, then THAT RED CORVETTE showing up in the wilderness with gas, keys and everything in place is a PIECE OF CAKE. That Red Vette, all on it's own, is easy as counting 1,2,3 when compared to all THESE OTHER things arising from and existing because of a series of what can only be described as FAT-CHANCES, ALL ON THEIR VERY OWN.
NOW DEAL WITH IT ATHEISTS!
This is why you athesists are STUCK with red corvette on your foreheads for life. It applies, it fits, it works. For those of you that want to TRY wiggling off the hook because red vette aint living, breathing, self-replicating life form, you are then BURIED by the fact that neither is the earth, moon, sun, and stars or universe living, breathing, self-replicating life forms. Neither is atmosphere, water cycles, photosynthesis, weather systems etc living breathing self-replicating life forms. But I already addressed that in the other threads.
Is why I also used the bomb-explosions never turning into a New York city with buildings, plumbing, door knobs and yellow cabs. This is just plain old, laughable nonsense, passed down to people that want to cut out the reality that there is a God.
Is also why so few humans ever buy into it.
Nope athesists are sure many things all right, but they sure AIN'T the sharpest tolls in the shed...
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ringo5
I don't think you're giving theists enough credit.
The mental gymnastics required can take a great deal of effort. This has to fit in to their busy schedule of circular logic, which can keep them running in circles for extended periods of time.
This can be followed up with "meditation" , which helps to push out any rational thoughts (doubts) that threaten to derail their faith, as that would mean all their effort was for naught, since their god needs them to "believe".
The smarter ones naturally develop decent debating skills, as they have internal debates quite often, presumably followed by a thought stopping prayer.
Being able to fit all that into their day, and still finding the time to be a functioning member of society, I think entitles them to a certain amount of respect for their mental prowess.
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Satans little helper
Interesting that you should accuse Atheists of circular logic.
If your "god" created the universe, who created god?
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Vinny
Poor satans little helper. He thinks he has theists in a corner cause he asks, "who made God".
I am so scared folks.... : )
Well, since you showed up on the other thread, I will let you read the answer on that one. No need to spank the atheists on both threads...
Nevermind, lets play spank the atheists on both threads.
**** This is such an old, sophomoric argument from atheists. I've already answered this before in other places. But to appease you, I will address here again:
First of all, it is my personal belief that:
1- Everything which has a beginning has a cause. This an understood and accepted principle in human civilizations throughout the earth. If it had a beginning, then somebody or something made it. Fairly simple. The computers each of us are using at this moment had to be made by somebody. Mine was made by Apple, for example. But if there were no name mentioned at all, we still know that somebody had to make it. Design begets a designer.
2- The Universe, including our earth (and all life upon the earth) had a beginning. Most scientists believe in the 'Big Bang" theory. While omitting God altogether, the common belief is that it did have a definite beginning and is still developing and expanding.
3- Therefore, the Universe, that had a beginning, must also have a Cause. That Cause, in my opinion is God.
4-The bible, in my opinion, is a reliable source of information. It claims to be authored by God. There is an abundance of evidence that it could be authored by God. As briefly listed on another thread (now defunct) here is a very short list of reasons why I believe the bible is from God and thus a reliable, trustworthy source of information today:
"For me, the idea that all four of gospel writers just made up these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found something powerfully persuasive in this person called Christ. They also admit their mistakes which only adds to their credibility in my mind. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming an ardent member, one of the foremost of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, only adds to the believability in my opinion. I guess all of these writers could have just made these things up. That is possible. But it is also possible they happened just as were written. And if so, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, *IF* these accounts about him are true.
The many prophecies written that had exact fulfillments adds ever more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is round, and that it hangs upon nothing, though men at that time believed the earth was flat, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than men. Are all of these just mere coincidences? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not only a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment.
There is secular testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist at all, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly not. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of miracles where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with hundreds of eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many.
Is it possible then that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. If so, if it is from God himself, then the very question as to how life arrived is answered. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these things that we see today. No soup-like conditions that somehow evolved into the beautiful yet complex systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened. It talks about everlasting life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and permanently. That is a beautiful hope. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.
For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable."
5- The bible tells us that God had NO beginning.
Psalm 90:2 ...Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.
psalm 93:2... You are from time indefinite to time indefinite.
Isaiah 57:15 ....God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’
Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.
If the bible is inspired of God (as I have sound reason to believe, by the reasons posted above), and if what it says is true that God had No Beginning, where then is the need for a Cause or designer? This is perhaps the crux of my argument then; NOBODY created God, because according inspired scripture, God had no beginning, hence eliminating the need for a cause altogether. This is the only example, the one sole instance where this principle would apply. All other features of the universe including the earth as well as all life on the earth, the spirit world and anything else anywhere, had a beginning and thus demands a cause. God, the intelligent designer himself, exclusively, is this one sole exception.
ADDITIONALLY, aside from the bible, Einstein’s theory of general relativity, which has tremendous experimental support, standing the test of time many decades later, states that "time" is linked to matter and space. The way that man keeps track of time, for example is based on the physical universe. Minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years are all related to the earth's rotation around the sun. Time itself then, it is believed, would have begun along with matter and space with the beginning of the universe. Hence, *If* an Intelligent Designer Created the universe, he would also be the creator of time? Being the Creator of time, he would NOT be limited to the time "dimension" that HE himself created. He is thus outside of time. He would not be limited by time or space (dimensions again both of which he created) and thus once again, not requiring a cause for his very own existence. . Because all of us personally live in the dimension of time, it can be impossible for us to fully understand anything that does not have a beginning or an end. He, simply put, always existed.
No human beings were there in the beginning of the universe to witness what exactly happened. Brilliant minds today can only guess and try to formulate theories. The bible says pointedly: "In the Beginning God Created the heavens and the earth". There is sound and reasonable reasons to believe, as many (including some of the most intellectual minds ever born) in Creation. That all life as we know it today was deigned by the only one who is not subject to time, the only one that never had a beginning. The only one that is not confined by space and bound by physical laws. Laws in which he created and therefore would not be subject to. None of which here is a stretch to either grasp, believe or understand. It makes sense to me. It is believable, logical and reasonable.
Some like to suggest, "well you cannot prove this, so you really cannot say with any certainty that you believe this". And for those that do feel this way, I disagree. I should add, I "respectfully" disagree. I have no problems with others that feel differently than I. But I can believe and do believe in the existence of God, through more than just faith itself. Though faith is an integral part of this equation too. In fact it is needed to a degree. But there is also EVIDENCE, logical PROOF that an Intelligent Designer is responsible for all features of life today. Complex, intelligent, purposeful systems that reflect the intellect of that designer himself. There are numerous court cases that have gone to trial where all of the evidence is circumstantial. Perhaps no body has been found. Still, today's technology now allows trace evidences and other signs to give very convincing testimony that a crime was committed. Juries have been thoroughly and unitedly and fully convinced to convict criminals based on such outside, circumstantial evidence exclusively. Likewise then, there are numerous "evidences" that all life arrived due to the hand of a Master Designer. The complexity and uniformity, the order and structure, the harmony of system after system, feature after feature, from the smallest molecules to the incredible living breathing life forces surrounding us all, to the incredibly complex earth where so many systems are just perfectly balanced all working together to allow life to exist are evidences to me that somebody surely must be responsible. The far more complex, far more powerful and awe inspiring universe with star after star, planet after planet solar system after solar system all beautifully organized, with inconceivable, unimaginable amounts of power and energy, give further testimony, in my mind, that these things did not just "happen" through some unguided series of accidents. Just some fortuitous combination of circumstances. A blind fluke of good fortune?
As Einstein astutely stated, "God does not play dice with the universe". So though we cannot see God, we can see EVIDENCE that he does indeed exist. Just as we cannot see our own brains or gravity, or oxygen etc... the evidence that these things are nonetheless real is overwhelming. For myself then, evidence that God exists is even more powerful. The evidence supports this belief for me.
After an examination of much evidence, I am 100 percent certain that these things surrounding us are the result of a Superior Designer. In my mind and in my sincere opinion God DOES exist. And He is responsible for my being here right now. I owe him the gratitude he so deserves. I thank him for letting me live and exist. Sure I am also here because my mother and father married, had intimate relations and I was born. But that process in itself is so complex, such an outstanding system of design that, for me, the credit rightfully goes to the Creator himself. This is why HE deserves the credit; my parents had me because a masterful designer created this process called REPRODUCTION. In fact there was very little on their part, to be truthful. He is worthy of worship in my mind. My questions as to how life arose are answered.
Now ATHEISTS, I have addressed your questions. It is time for you to answer mine.
Please tell those following this thread just how these very complicated systems in the universe and the earth, along with all life forms upon the earth ORIGINATED. Just how did they START? If Science cannot create life, from non-living matter, in a controlled, scientific environment, nor give life BACK to a dead person or animal (though having all the parts needed right in front of them), then how could all these very things come to exist without ANY intellectual force behind them at all? Just FELL into place?
BWAAAAHAHHAAHAHHAHAH
It has never been done ANYWHERE. Yet you want to just chalk up all these complex, massive, amazing features surrounding us today, up to just blind series of chances?
Sure, there is a red corvette just sitting in North Dakota somewhere too...
Sorry. But I am Not buying what you are selling ATHEISTS.
YOU ARE DEAD IN WATER ATHEISTS.
Sorry to have to post this twice folks. But you can thank satanslilhelper, cause he ASKED FOR IT TWICE.
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BR25
A few of you asked what exactly I meant by athiests are the smartest ones on here. I was speaking of their beliefs and their comments on here. Like I said in my original post Im a jw backer, but I find fault with so many other religions as well, so beyond the viewpoint of what I think , if I had to back any other group besides the one I back up now, athiesm seems to be the most intelligent way to go.
It was nice to get support on here for once. I about fell over. Maybe I should have complimented the athiests before. Wow maybe you guys are more humble than the other people associated with other christian groups on here.
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Vinny
ooops
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Vinny
However BR25, I have a few thoughts and questions for you. I WAS a JW too. I was also an elder and very loyal, baptized Witness for 15 years. I left just one year ago.
Contrast this with the WATCHTOWER SOCIETY now. They too claim that what is written is food from God, and that this organization is the ONLY place to go for eternal salvation:
1919 "Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?" {WT Apr 1 1919 6414}
1933 "To feed or teach his people the Lord has used the Watch Tower publications.. No man is given any credit for the wonderful truths which the Lord has revealed to his people through the Watch Tower publications." {WT Dec 1 1933 263}
1939 "It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communicating to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watchtower is used for that purpose." {YEAR 1939 85}
1942 "The Watchtower does not consist of men's opinions" {WT Jan 1 1942 5}
1957 "Jehovah has established a very definite channel of communication through which he deals with his people .. It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the 'slave' as we would to the voice of God." {WT Jun 15 1957 370}
1969 "Jehovah's organization as directed by his 'faithful and discreet slave' class should influence our every decision also. {WT March 15, 1969 172}
1979 [Of those living at the time of Armageddon, only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved] {WT Feb 15 1979 30}
1913"Some have a strong desire to worship God, others have a weak desire, and others have no desire at all. ***This difference is due to the shape of the brain.*** Mankind are born with differences in this respect. -'Psa. 51:5'" {WR Mar 15 1913 5201}
1921 "The size of the nose, as also the size of the eyes, is not without significance. The small-nosed man cannot have a judicial mind, whatever his other excellencies may be. And a man whose nose upturns can no more be expected to administer justice than a pug dog can be expected to act as a shepherd." {GA Jan 19 1921 224}
1925 ".. about April 1, 1925, at which time we may expect the resurrection of the Ancient Worthies .." {MLND 110}
1926 "[White rulers as in Britain have the] superior mental, moral, or physical force .. [but be warned, power is slipping as the] powers of the colored races are expanding" {WT May 15 1926 483}
1984 "Generally rapists try to get a woman in some isolated place where people are not around. At times they have a weapon and threaten to use it if the victim does not co-operate. Should a Christian quietly submit? No.. the rapist is asking a person to break God's law by committing fornication. Under such circumstances a Christian is obligated to resist. -1 Corinthians 6:18.. 'If I gave in and he raped me, I would eventually die and have no hope of a resurrection.'" {AWAK Feb 22 1984 24-7
1989 "Before the 1914 generation completely dies out, God's judgment must be executed." {WT May 1 1985 4}
The end of the system was predicted, in writing, in these years: 1874, 1875, 1881, 1888, 1914, 1915, 1918, (could occur in 1920), 1925, ("resurrection of Princes" in 1929), 1932, 1940, ("any day now" in 1942), ("why not now" in 1951), 1975, and before the generation that was born in 1914 dies, which was dropped in 1996 after it was clearly another false prediction. Every one of these predictions, in writing, has proved false. People sold homes, gave up opportunities to start families, secure employment, gave up opportunities for an education and instead spread a message of doom that was simply untrue with each prediction made. All of these failed.
Despite the numerous errors in doctrine, medical mistakes, weird science end of the world false predictions and unscriptural blood transfusion bans that fill its pages of history, the society still demands full and complete support of its policies and doctrines today. Notice this comment from a 5/1/72 WT (page 272): "That they [Jehovah's Witness] must adhere absolutely to the decisions and scriptural understandings of the Society because God has given it this authority over his people."
So, in the end, we have what many would consider as extremely damaging facts that undermine the Watchtower Society's claim that it alone is God's one true faith on earth today. That core belief is in my opinion the GLUE that keeps everything else together. Without THAT foundation of belief that this religious organization IS the one truth on earth, everything else involved with the religion begins to fall apart. The willingness to be loyal despite doubts lessens and lessens.
This is also why the Watchtower Society strongly discourages any kind of out-of-house critical examinations. These examinations often expose the very poor historical record. It is also, in the opinion of many, why those that formally leave the faith are considered apostate and have to be shunned. This shunning policy minimizes the possibility of critical information from being shared with other JW's.
When I personally learned about the mistakes on Vaccinations and Organ Transplants it simply damaged the credibility of the organization as a whole. It was at that point that an honest, THOROUGH examination of the Watchtower Society began on my part. An examination that only made things much, much worse in the end. If this is God's true and only channel, how then can they be so wrong, so often, on doctrine, medical issues, end of the world predictions, and yet still demand complete obedience from its members or face risk of complete shunning? This is also why I chose to leave the faith altogether one year ago. The bible has no such list of wacky opinions, medical blunders or false prophecies despite being written thousands of years ago. The Watchtower history on the other hand is FILLED with these very things; wacky ideas, medical embarrassments and many false end of the world statements. All written within the last 100 or so years. This is a huge problem.
In addition to all of the past mistakes and embarassing writings, there is also still the CURRENT list of issues. Here are just a few:
CURRENTLY Witnesses cannot formally leave the WT Society without being shunned and punished by all JW's, including your own family for the rest of their life.
CURRENTLY NO brother wearing a beard is allowed congregational privileges. This policy is actually a CONTRAST to bible teachings
CURRENTLY NO Witness is allowed to celebrate his or anybody's birthday without risk of expulsion. This policy is found nowhere in the bible.
CURRENTLY NO Witness is allowed to vote without risk of being expelled. This policy is found nowhere in the bible.
CURRENTLY NO Witness can celebrate Mothers Day Fathers Day, Thanksgiving, New Years Day 4th of July or many other holidays without risk of being expelled. Not found in the bible.
CURRENTLY NO Witness is allowed to work as a police officer or any other occupation where he carries a firearm and remain exemplary (or be used in the cong). Not in the bible. Used as a protection and to maintain order.
CURRENTLY NO Witness that plays sports in school, becomes a cheerleader or joins after school clubs is viewed favorably.
CURRENTLY ALL Sisters are expected to wear dresses to all meetings and field service. No pants, jumpsuits, shorts etc. allowed. Not found in the bible.
CURRENTLY NO Witness can play the lottery without risk of expulsion. Nowhere found in the bible
CURRENTLY NO Witness is allowed to participate in Martial Arts or Yoga. This policy is found nowhere in the bible.
CURRENTLY NO Witness that owns his own business can perform any services on church or military institutions. This policy is found nowhere in the bible.
CURRENTLY NO JW that averages less than double digits in the ministry qualifies for congregational responsibilities. (You can dip occasionally below but not on an average basis).
CURRENTLY one cannot accept a whole blood transfusion without being disfellowshipped even if dying is the likely result. Yet one can accept certain fractions of blood, even though other smaller oftentimes more vital fractions are not allowed. JW's do use these fractions taken from the worlds blood supply, often in great quantity, yet are not allowed to donate blood back into this very same blood supply they have taken from. And CURRENTLY Witnesses are not even allowed to withdraw and store their OWN blood for surgery or other emergencies.
CURRENTLY there is the Watctower's official website page of hypocrisy where all others are encouraged to examine their own faith, be willing to make a stand, even if different yet if a Witness does this very same thing they will be expelled.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2000/6/22/article_03.htm
CURRENTLY no bible study is told of all the past medical mistakes that cost thousands of lives, nor that the JW's mis-predicted the end of the world a dozen times, nor that thousands of brothers went to prison for refusing alternative service for 50 years before being made "conscience" matters. They are also never told that if you choose to leave the organization you will be shunned for the rest of your life unless you come back in full agreement with all current teachings. Nor are they ever told they cannot disagree with any current teachings. Bible studies will never know these things. I have personally found this out the hard way.
What do these sad things say about the organaization repsonsible for printing/enforcing them?
Vinny -
BR25
Hey I understand. Alot of the topics you brought up of course you cant find them in the bible, but you can find bible reasoning on subjects, such as playing the lottery. LIke when the bible warns of riches, materialism. Also, points like when jesus turned downed the riches of the world.
Another example I can relate to. Playing sports I dont find to much wrong with it so I will agree with you on that, but when I played sports in high school I didnt have time for the meetings anymore, and other teammates who attended regular church activities didnt have no more time for that either, so it seems to me that I was putting fun in front of beneficial, or more time devoted to sports instead of god.
Vinny, sorry if my comments back are not the greatest, I am quite rusty on bible talks and so forth, so I have a hard time explaining subjects the way I want too.
-
Vinny
I have one request for you BR25; simply take the time to just examine the WT Society honestly. You have nothing to lose. If it is the truth, then you will only become more certain of this. But most all JW's will not do just that. They do exactly what the WT Society says, and believes what they say to believe.
I was just like this for 15 years. I was not a disgruntled Witness. Had much oversight, responsibilities kids and wife in the organization. But then I ran into some really damaging facts about the Society.
Here is my own disassociation letter explaining exactly what happend and why I had to leave.
http://p196.ezboard.com/Letter-of-disassociation/fexjehovahswitnessforumfrm14.showMessage?topicID=237.topic
I respect that these things may not be concerns for you. But I hope that you at least consider them in some reasonable context and can see whay manay do leave the JW faith.
The fact you are here shows a willingness to at least go against what the men in NY tell you to do. You know you should not be here of all places. That is in print.
If you do decide to examine the faith honestly, then I would like to recommend you purchase these two outstanding books.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0914675168/104-9391991-2543967?v=glance&n=283155
One can walk away from the JW's and still be an honest Christian. I would like to believe I fall into this category. My relationship with my Heavenly Father is more intimate now than ever before. I am labeled and completely shunned by all JW's today. And I live on an island, so you bump into each other quite often over here. My one step son will not even speak to me, nor his mom, my wife, who quit going to the meetings almost one year ago. My two other kids have also left, with my step daughter just leaving last weekend. She was a Regular Pioneer one year ago. She told us that she was just not happy as a JW.
We have all found a freedom that is worth all of the negative response from the Witnesses over here.
I hope you can find this freedom too.
Feel free to e-mail me privately if you have any thoughts or questions.
Wish you the best,
Vinny