The thing I find annoying about athiests (the ones that I have met) is that they always want to argue with you. It gives me the creeps because they use the same kind of tricks as the Watchtower, referring to themselves as "people of reason" and seem to look down on people who don't share their views. I think it is a case of hating something so much that you become it. Athiests hate religion so much that it becomes thier religion. It almost seems like they doubt their lack of faith, worrying that maybe there is a god and your belief is a threat to their non-belief. I don't mean this to be an attack on all athiests, just the ones that I have met. Maybe I have just met athiests with very strong views and man, can they be pushy.
Athiests
by BR25 64 Replies latest jw friends
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LtCmd.Lore
The thing I find annoying about athiests (the ones that I have met) is that they always want to argue with you. It gives me the creeps because they use the same kind of tricks as the Watchtower, referring to themselves as "people of reason" and seem to look down on people who don't share their views. I think it is a case of hating something so much that you become it. Athiests hate religion so much that it becomes thier religion. It almost seems like they doubt their lack of faith, worrying that maybe there is a god and your belief is a threat to their non-belief. I don't mean this to be an attack on all athiests, just the ones that I have met. Maybe I have just met athiests with very strong views and man, can they be pushy.
Maybe you've acctually met dozens of atheists, but you just don't know it because they didn't argue with you about it.
As far as I know, ALL people consider themselves people of reason... I don't think I know a single person who, when asked about their religion, will say: "I'm not reasonable. I'm only a christian because my parents were."
Yes I consider myself to be a man of reason. But my JW parents think they are people of reason. My catholic grandparents think they are people of reason. I'm sure you consider yourself to be a person of reason, and Vinny considers himself to be a person of reason.
Maybe atheists are just more interested in proving that claim than most people.
As far as looking down upon peoples who don't share my views, well, yes and no. I think they are WRONG, but at least I don't sit back and imagine them burning in hell for it... I also don't consider religion to be the most important choice in your life, so if your wrong about god, that's fine. It's just a small part of a big picture.
Try watching some 'Way of the Master' episodes. (google video it). It's a show made a guy named Ray Comfort... He's pretty popular among theists. Watch some of his shows and you'll see that it's not just atheists who can be creepy and condescending. I think there are jerks on both sides.
Lore
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theinfamousone
The thing I find annoying about athiests (the ones that I have met) is that they always want to argue with you. It gives me the creeps because they use the same kind of tricks as the Watchtower, referring to themselves as "people of reason" and seem to look down on people who don't share their views. I think it is a case of hating something so much that you become it. Athiests hate religion so much that it becomes thier religion. It almost seems like they doubt their lack of faith, worrying that maybe there is a god and your belief is a threat to their non-belief. I don't mean this to be an attack on all athiests, just the ones that I have met. Maybe I have just met athiests with very strong views and man, can they be pushy.
i hate to say this, but by your logic, i can say i find all theists annoying too... the ones i have met, the dubs in particular, are extremely pushy... then theres the mormons, the seventh days, the evangelists and bla bla bla..... they all come up to you and push you... i remember one offering me a bible, me accepting, out of reason, i like to know what people believe, and he tried to force me to sign some paperwork... and even worse he would not allow me to read it, it just says you give your life to jesus! upon refusing he called me a heathen and strolled off...
but you need to take these things with a grain of salt... these people come with their own experiences and mental issues, and do not represent the majority of religious people, they are just a fringe group of nuts... it would be unfair for me to say i think theists are annoying due to that!
what i will say is that i hate theists like vinny who believe that they are better than everyone... they use the exact same logic as the witnesses to "prove" something that cannot be proven!!! it doesn't make sense... again, this whole debate, as interesting as it is, ALWAYS, without a flaw, becomes a screaming match... because the nuts always prevail... "i need to be heard, because i am always right and you are all wrong" its ridiculous...
neither side can win this debate... we are either both wrong, both right or only one is right.. the problem here is that there is NO PROOF either way! so at this point unless you are debating to understand the other persons viewpoint so that you can be better informed about our collective consciousness, there is no point in being here!!!!
so lets debate respectfully, instead of all turning into vinny who is one of the most condescending idiots that has ever wasted my time! i love to learn what theists believe, and am not willing to belittle them because the truth is, they could be right... they can teach me alot about the world and can teach me alot about why people act the way they do!!!!
the infamous one (true hater of bickering!)
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LtCmd.Lore
The thing I find annoying about athiests (the ones that I have met) is that they always want to argue with you. It gives me the creeps because they use the same kind of tricks as the Watchtower, referring to themselves as "people of reason" and seem to look down on people who don't share their views. I think it is a case of hating something so much that you become it. Athiests hate religion so much that it becomes thier religion. It almost seems like they doubt their lack of faith, worrying that maybe there is a god and your belief is a threat to their non-belief. I don't mean this to be an attack on all athiests, just the ones that I have met. Maybe I have just met athiests with very strong views and man, can they be pushy.
Meh, I'll respond again 'cause I have more to say. Besides, this thread IS called 'atheists' so here goes:
I'm not sure you understand how the world appears to us. To an atheist, god, fairies and santa are all on equal levels of fakeness.
So imagine a world... where EVERYONE you know and love believes in fairies. And not only that, but huge portions of their lives are dedicated to that belief... Your parents go to "wand" every sunday morning and spend two whole hours clapping, in order to bring fairies to life and win their approval. All your friends do the same thing. They ring a pixie bell before they eat every day. They would SWEAR that everytime something good happens, it's caused by a fairy.
It's not just your friends and family, fairies apear on money, the president believes in fairies. Scary huh? The man who has access to atomic weapons, entire armies, and runs the entire country believes in fairies, and thinks they are the most important things in life. He thinks that there is an army of fairies protecting the county, and he says that these fairies are directing his actions.
But you used to believe in fairies too, at age 16 you weighed the evidence, and to the best of your ability, you decided that fairies don't exist. But that's not the end of it, because if you don't believe in fairies, then you won't become one when you die. Sorry, there goes your immortal life. It's hard to deal with but you know that pretending won't do any good.
People get very emotional about fairies, if you say "I don't believe in fairies" they think that a fairy falls down dead. They get horribly angry, and DEMAND that you clap to bring it back to life... if you don't they'll say "Well I'll clap for you."
Your parents are OUTRAGED! They are ashamed at all the fairies you killed during your discussion with them, and they know that the fairy king will come to avenge their deaths if they don't punish you first. So they restrict your privileges, and constantly make horrible threats about your afterlife.
So you are an outcast, surveys are taken that say that: above any other minority, homosexuals, blacks, asians or transvestites. Afairist are considered the least american.
Fairists are fighting the judicial system to make sure pro-fairy material is taught to schoolkids. They fight to keep it on the money, they want it in the pledge of allegience.
Entire countries fight each other about trivial things like: Whether or not Tinkerbell is the daughter of the fairy king. Or if you should clap with your hands horizontal or vertical.
People claim that fairies are talking to them... and people believe them. Doctors cure people, and the patients thank the fairies instead of the doctors. Otherwise brilliant people, like Einstein, your parents, your teachers and even some scientists all believe in fairies, and despise the fact that you don't.
No matter how good your morals are, it's not good enough, because you are murdering fairies every single day.
People regularly post threads on the internet about how great fairies are, and on page one they are already calling afairists fools. They make ridiculous arguements like: "If there are no fairies, then how do you explain mushrooms?" Or: "BWAA HAA HAA, TIME TO SPANK THE AFAIRISTS BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE FAIRY RINGS COME FROM!"
They say things like, "when I see a building, I know there was a builder, so when I see a fairy ring, I know there was a fairy."
And it seems perfectly logical to them, to assume that: Just because we don't know what causes fairy rings, saying: "Fairies did it" is and acceptable answer. They then proceed to site some astronical figure stating the odds of the plants growing in THAT exact shape by pure random chance.
But that's not the worst of it: There are OTHER countries, (Mostly leprechaunists) Where women are required to wear full body covering because leprechauns are offended by female skin. And they stone aleprechaunists to death. They hate fairists, but they hate aleprechaunists/afairists even more. They want you dead. And they are willing to kill themselves to kill you.
Your only hope, is to make sure that the country you live in doesn't go that far.
How would you function in a world like that?
Well that's how atheists see the world. And yes, we want it to change.
Lore
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Perry
I see Vinny is holding class and confusing atheists with logic once again.
SatanLH writes:
[The universe] didn't just appear out of nothing, as would have been the case if your god figure created everything, what actually happened was a long series of very small changes which moved things from one state to another state
This of course is pure fantasy. No matter how many eons of time you imagine the result is still the same. And, that reality is that the most brilliant scientists who have ever lived, in the most controlled of labratory circumstances ever devised, have never been able to create something from nothing.....EVER.
Please explain what "state" was the beginning state from which the other states morphed from. What's that you say? "The state was nothing". Your argument has the exact same constitution as the first state that you present .... nothing.
That the universe had a beginning is beyond dispute scientifically. That beginning infers a First Cause. This proof was very troubling for atheist scientists initially.
If you say on the one hand, that a "state" existed before the universe, then you are saying the exact same thing that Genisis says: "In the beginning, God..."
If on the other hand, you state that the universe always self-existed then you have bigger problems with an eternal digression of cause and effect events. That one is easy to disprove. Give me just a second and I will. ...There I did it. Oh, you missed it. Here, I'll do it again. Still don't get it? Allow me to explain.
If time is an infinite digression of C&E events in infinite past, how do you account for the future? For every moment back in time there is one moment in present. Where does the future come from? Your "long series" of time argument that atheists like to use is not your friend. I would encourage you to refrain from using this particular argument.
Now if a "state" existed outside the constraints of time and this "state" brought all things into existence including time, then you have an argument that makes logical sense. That time can be manipulated is beyond dispute, proven some one hundred years ago by a man named Albert Einstein....perhaps you've heard of him?
If that is true, then from the standpoint of beings such as us (which is the only one that concerns us right now), then the universe would have been seen to appear out of nothing as time and matter came into existence.
From the standpoint of God, the universe, time, energy would be simply the effects of the manifested causes of his willful creativity. In other words, the time that you imagine to be so permanent and that in fact characterrizes your faulty arguments is in fact not permanent at all. Time itself had a beginning.
Since he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, it is very unwise to simply "imagine" him out of existence. The truly fearful thing is that he loves justice as much as he loves us. As in our own societies, crimes must be punished or else the society cannot be characterized as just. God must punish us for our crimes or else he cannot be characterized as just either.
Both our punishment and our reward is eternal. The non-existense that you imagine when you die is just another atheist fantasy. It's not the end. It's just the beginning of your nighmare.
The stakes are very, very high. As any mother would scream, "take me instead"! if she found out her daughter had just been kidnapped and unnaturally perverted; so too God decided, (yea even planned) to take the shaft for us when we were perverted by our captor. That Roman spear is our destiny. But he took the shaft for you and me and anyone else that would accept his ransom purchase.
Atheists like to cry and whine about why God doesn't fix this problem or why he doesn't solve that pain I see over there. The reason is that he is not your Father. You are not his son. He has no responsibility toward any of us whatsoever. We are naturally from our father the devil, being trapped in sin and completely unable to do that which we can all imagine: don't lie, don't steal, don't commit adultery. Yet, ALL of us are GUILTY of these and far more.
It gets much worse. In our depraved state, we can imagine righteousness but must live out our moral failures. Atheists try to relieve this problem by saying there is no such thing as morality, or that it's relative. This is just anarchy and they know it. Let's see an atheists raise their 3 year old like this. "Johnny" you may kick the dog if you feel that is right for you". UTTER BOVINE EXCREMENT.
It still gets worse. Our depravity is so complete that we cannot even choose to choose God if he first doesn't make that possible. "So that no man may boast".
Some will then say then, "why even seek God if I can't do it on my own"? You will need to read this sentence over and over until you see the self-fulfilling prophecy imbedded within it.
The reason that God arranged to deal with us in our utter weakness, blindness, and depravity is that he did it another way before man's existence and God was burned badly by a very large rebellion. He created us (the elect) in part to replace the rebelious angels, and to raise us from our depths of wickedness and self-deception to the heights of DIRECT SONSHIP with God. This is clearly taught in the scriptures. "To which of the angels did he say 'this is my son'"? The answer is none. Jesus was his only son. But we the elect will undergo sanctification until we "reach the full height and stature of the Christ"! The other reason is to provide judges for the rebellious angels. Yes, we will be their masters.... and they know it! They fear ANYONE who accepts the offer to "Come, and take Life's water free". Our destiny will be their complete humilitation.
This is an unimaginable destiny for ANY who accept his pardon for our crimes. The reason that we must start out in total depravity is precisely because our destiny is total LIFE. Self-Life. God wishes to make sure that no one can ever boast that they did it, or had a hand in it themselves. It's all his doing.
God is playing a very high stakes game with Life. We (fallen humans) are the focus of his greatest moral creation yet.... the elect. But, we must start out as we are now.
Of course, the other option is to simply stick your head in the ground and imagine that you are just a globular DNA mass existing alone in the universe with no purpose, no basis for justice, and no basis for ....well anything.
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theinfamousone
perry, as much as i enjoy your post and the defending you are doing of your faith... you must realize that you are using the exact same logic as the atheists, just with a theistic twist... you are not proving the existance of a superior being, you are trying to disprove one of many atheistic beliefs...
what you are doing is simply illustrated... i say there was never a banana in my chair... you say there was... how do you prove that? by saying that i can't prove that there never was a banana in my chair... you have not proven that there was a banana in my chair... you have only proven that neither of us can be entirely sure of what we think!!!
proving that god exists is just like trying to prove to a child that santa claus exists... its the same tactic as any religion uses... "oh yeah santa is there", to which the child may reply "i don't believe you" and then you will tell the child, "but there are presents here.." and the child says, "oh yeah".... same with religion... when a priest says "there is a god" some might say, "i dont believe you"... a response like "but there are trees and bees and bananas and wonderful things, that proves theres a god" we wont all say "oh yeah" that simply is not enough for some of us!
i respect you for your faith, i cannot be that faithful
i hate to bring up the purple flying monkey my friend, but the wind did not prove that he was there, nor could anyone disprove that he wasnt!!!!! if you think rationally about this whole issue, no one can prove that something infinite exists.. our minds cannot comprehend that!
i don't know what i believe originated this earth... and maybe thats why i'm such an advocate of live and let live here... but arguing that since there is a tree there that has the wonderful ability to provide a home for birds, wood to make things out of, sap we can drink or use for many purposes and even leaves that make photosynthesis does not prove atheists wrong or theists right!
we are all sitting on a rickety fence here my friends... neither side can be sure what they believe is the truth... and in all honesty, we all need to realize that the circular logic being pervayed in this rant-line is not going to prove anything...
maybe your need to have a god out there is tied in with your need to feel some self worth... and thats great, some of us need that, some of us don't... thats why our minds are such great things, theres no two that are the same!
thanks for the respectful post perry, i really do respect your logic as well
the infamous one(on a quest to understand why people believe what they do, and so fervently)
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Handsome Dan
The reason that most people turn to Atheism is that gods were first formed and formulated on human ignorance, there is plenty of proof of that in are history.
There has been a evolution of knowledge that has been brought forward over time through scientific discovery.
It's true that scientists do not have the answers to all things, and the honest ones will actually admit that, but perhaps over time the evolution of science and knowledge will reveal more of
the mystery of life......religion reveals nothing but ignorance as it should since it is very old.
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Vinny
Awwwww, the atheists here are hurt today because I was too hard on them. TOO FUNNY.
NO arguments dealing red vette in the wilderness.
NO arguments dealing with science failing to create life from lifeless in controlled settings.
NO arguments dealing with science cannot even PUT LIFE BACK where it life once was hours before.
NO arguments dealing with the universal "every beginning has a cause" fact of life.
NO arguments explaining how big BANG results in orderly, intricate, powerful universe; a spinning, orbiting earth with atmosphere, water, ozone etc, with moon practically attached; and life all throughout that earth.
And dozens of other issues unanswered. Just lots of of "vinny aint being enough like jesus" comments.
: )
As for those of you that think "Jesus" wants vinny to just lay down for your bologna/salami atheist lame arguments and accusations. Or for those of you that think I am being too hard on the poor atheists, I have TWO REPLIES FOR YOU:
Jesus THREW OUT the money changers, replied to all accusations, called the pharisees hypocrites and thoroughly EXPOSED their erroneous traditions and foolish ways. (Sounds good to me)...
These FINE QUOTES from atheists themselves on just two current threads tell it LIKE IT IS.
Furthermore, I do not call the atheists turds, sh**heads, morons etc. I do LAUGH at your explanations quite a bit. But that would be because your explanations (or often LACK OF) ARE LAUGHABLE. I do think atheistic *beliefs* are stupid, but never called any one of you here stupid or anything likewise. -
LtCmd.Lore
NO arguments explaining how life arises from nothing.
We already have an 8 page discussion on abiogenesis. Check your post history.
NO arguments dealing red vette in the wilderness.
We already pointed out that because it's not made from biological tissue, it can't reproduce, and it's a machine that couldn't support itself even if it did apear naturally, it doesn't apply. Why would we deal with something that everyone but you agrees is not applicable.
NO arguments dealing with science failing to create life from lifeless in controlled settings.
http://www.evilbible.com/Synthetic_Life.htm
NO arguments dealing with science cannot even PUT LIFE BACK where it life once was hours before.
That would require reactivating each individual cell in a body. And since religous people are the only ones who claim that's even possible I dunno why you expect it of us... basically I'm saying, you first, or god first.
NO arguments dealing with the universal "every beginning has a cause" fact of life.
Well some scienists believe that the universe didn't have a beggining, and I don't know why that's not acceptable to you, since you belive that about god. But saying, "I dunno, but we're working on it" is much better than ignoring it like you do.
NO arguments explaining how big BANG results in orderly, intricate, powerful universe; a spinning, orbiting earth with atmosphere, water, ozone etc, with moon practically attached; and life all throughout that earth.
We also covered that in the other thread.
1: big bang explodes, spewing clouds of debris.
2: over a long period of time thicker parts of this cloud are drawn together by gravity and form spheres, stars, black holes, planets, asteriods etc.
3: Tada, you have a universe with over 70 sextillion stars. That's 70 sextillion solar systems which can contain multiple planets. (Note, this does not produce an orderly universe, it produces one in which planets, stars and even entire galaxies slam into each other. If you happen to observe an orderly universe please let me know.)
4: At least one of those 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars has a planet orbiting it that is capable of supporting some form of life. And that spins... lots of planets spin so I'm not sure why you mentioned that, but whatever. At least you didn't mention gravity as a qualifier this time.
5: That planet has an atmosphere but it's drastically different than the one we have now, after plants evolve and can produce oxygen, you have a different atmosphere.
6: Ozone forms naturally from water molocules seperating due to the ultraviolet radiation from the nearby star.
I'm still waiting for you to pick out your most convincing prophecy.
(Flying purple monkey.)
Lore
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Vinny
TROUNCE TIME!
By lot's o luck and many fat chances!
Even in controlled settings.
Even with all the parts right there in front of them.
Atheists get buried by this little problem they have.
Sorry but every time I have to do this:
Bwaaaahahahahahahahahahahah
Poor atheists do not like being in mud. But when we offer them a way out, they say, no thanks, I like the mud better.
Poor atheists.
Poor mud.
Poor vettes.
Tsk tsk.