Did the Bible writers think people would suffer in a burning hell?

by AlmostAtheist 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    There's all sorts of reasoning about whether or not there's a real, burning hell contained in the Bible. The idea is so counter to the idea of a loving God, that even serious Bible-thumpers often think of hell as a "separation from God" and not an actual place of torment.

    But what did the Bible writers really intend when they penned the words? Did they have in mind a literal place of torment, or not?

    I'm shooting this toward the Nark's and Leo's of the world, but anyone's thoughts are welcome.

    Dave

  • metatron
    metatron

    Absolutely! The silliest of all interpretations involves Rev 20:10. How much more explicit can anyone

    be in saying "tormented, day and night, forever and ever"? This text bothered me all my

    Witless life because I felt if you can explain this away, you can explain away anything in the

    Bible and it ceases to have any meaning.

    metatron

  • Terry
    Terry

    The Judaic theology had no immortal soul to torture.

    The Judaic death was sleep. No reward and no punishment.

    It was the pervasive and dynamic Greek mode of thought that took the world by storm when Alexander the Great over ran the known world and left behind something exciting and different to challenge old ideas.

    Judaism changed under Babylonian captivity. Once again, Judaism remolded its myth around Platonism.

    By the time Jesus and Paul and the bible writers appeared, Hebrew, primitive Judaism and soulsleep were out of fashion.

    Rome was fascinated by all things Greek including their language and theology. Platonism flourished well into 5th century.

    All of Christian theology is persuaded and plagarized with Greek thinking. This includes the afterworld and punishment.

    Hell, as it is perceived in the Western population, has its origins in HellenizedChristianity, particularly taken the Judaic belief of Hell from verses such as 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; 2 Kings 23:10. Some say the concept comes from the Greek mythological belief at the time. One must keep in mind that these were the people early Christianity was ministering to and some symbols might be taken from their belief to make Christianity easier to understand in their way of thinking.

    Judaism, at least initially, [1] believed in Sheol, a shadowy existence to which all were sent indiscriminately. Sheol may have been little more than a poetic metaphor for death, not really an afterlife at all: see for example Sirach and Isaiah 14:3-11 . However, by the third to second century B.C. the idea had grown to encompass a far more complex concept.

    The New HebrewSheol was translated in the Septuagint as 'Hades', the name for the underworld in Greek mythology and is still considered to be distinct from "Hell" by Eastern Orthodox Christians. In Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries and Concordances it is transliterated "Sheh-ole". The Lake of Fire and realm of Eternal Punishment in Hellenistic mythology was in fact Tartarus. Hades was not Hell in Hellenistic mythology, but was rather a form of limbo where the dead went to be judged. The New Testament uses this word, but it also uses the word 'Gehenna', from the valley of Hinnom, a valley near Jerusalem originally used as a location in which human sacrifices were offered to an idol called "Molech" (or Moloch).

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Some excellent information here: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html

    There is very little evidence that biblical (old or new testament) conceptions of she'ol, hades or tartarus, represented a form of "eternal" punishment. The "fiery" lake of Gehenna was based on a literal, burning waste disposal area and was most likely used in in the sense of eternal 'cutting off' from god and/or salvation.

    Where modern conceptions arose of a fiery cave with devils, pitchforks and red body suits, I have no idea....

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    There have been many threads on this topic, but, shortly, I'd say that some Bible writers (those behind the Synoptic Gospels and Revelation in particular) did believe in something like "hell" -- I mean, if they did not, they made a terrible job of expressing their thoughts. Should a JW make up a story like "the rich man and Lazarus," even if only as an illustration to make any other point than life after death, you can bet s/he would not get a "G" on "illustrations" at the TMS. As metatron excellently put it about Revelation, "if you can explain this away, you can explain away anything in the Bible and it ceases to have any meaning".

    This doctrine is, of course, directly tributary to Jewish apocalypticism which only emerges in the very latest strata of the OT (Isaiah 66, Daniel) but flourishes in so-called "intertestamental" Judaism (Maccabees, Enoch, Qumran etc.). However, it didn't have much influence on some contemporary parts of Judaism such as the Sadducees (cf. Ecclesiastes, which has a more negative view of she'ol than the older Israelite mythology), and I would say it cannot be assumed of all NT texts either (afaik it plays no part in Pauline or Johannine literature for instance).

    I wouldn't say (pace Terry) that this is exclusively or even prmarily due to Greek influence either. The emphasis on "soul survival" does betray Greek influence, but the idea of torments is another thing. Some characters like Prometheus are tormented in Hades, but this is not generalised. Apocalypticism was mostly anti-Hellenic, often reviving Persian motifs (like angels, demons and resurrection) against the Greek ones. The Sadduceans otoh could derive their "death is the end" perspective from non-Platonic Greek sources (e.g. Epicurean).

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    It's hard to believe in the eternal tormenting in the lake of fire and sulfur of even someone as villainous as the Devil. The worst offenders will most likely get a long period of punishment of thousands or tens of thousands of years and then get executed. Let's also not forget that humans often get punished in this life for their misdeeds by human law, super human intervention or by their conscience.

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    The idea is so counter to the idea of a loving God

    How do you come up with the idea that there is a loving God?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Bear in mind first of all that there was no single viewpoint of the "Bible writers" who represented a wide swath of Judaism and early Christianity over a span of many centuries.

    The oldest (i.e. pre-exilic) belief in the Bible held that there was no return to life from death, that the dead depart to the underworld (Sheol) where, as the "Rephaim" (cf. the similar rp'um in Canaanite and Phoenician texts), they linger on in a sort of shadowy existence. This conception of the afterlife, btw, has nothing to do with the Greek concept of the immortality of the soul, and it is unfortunate that the Society has treated the concept of an afterlife as the same thing as immortality of the soul because they are certainly not equivalent.

    Then in the post-exilic period, new ideas began to impress themselves on the Jewish mind from Persian religion: the idea of a final judgment, the idea of a resurrection of the body, the idea of divine punishment by fire (which was conceived not as an eternal pubnishment but one that leads to purification). These are apocalyptic ideas that made themselves manifest in certain streams of Judaism (particularly Pharisaism and Essenism) which did not become more mainstream until the second century BC. Before this, the dominant form of Judaism centered on the Zadokite priesthood and the sacrificial cult, which conservatively maintained many traditional beliefs and practices. The proto-Sadduccees of the third century BC were hellenizers to be sure, but they drew on Epicureanism which specifically denied an afterlife and which focused on accomplishing things in the present life (cf. Ecclesiastes, which succinctly presents the proto-Sadducean point of view -- leaving no room for a future judgment or resurrection). This was a philosophy that developed traditional Jewish views about death in the opposite direction. Apocalypticism, meanwhile, flourished in the Enochic movement of the third century BC that positioned itself against the priesthood and viewed it as corrupt. In Enochic Judaism, it was believed that Enoch was a heavenly scribe, writing down all the deeds of humankind in heavenly tablets, such that when Judgment Day arrives, God will judge everyone -- the living as well as the dead brought back to life -- according to what they have done and the righteous will be rewarded with everlasting life and blessing and the unjust will be punishment with everlasting torment in the fires of Gehenna. Similar apocalyptic notions run through later Essene and Christian literature. Not everything in the NT reflects this tradition, but it is quite pronounced in Matthew, Mark, Jude (which is directly dependent on 1 Enoch), and Revelation. There were many different variations on apocalyptic theology as well. The Essenes in particular had a notion of immortality of the soul that was combined with the belief in a future resurrection, whereas the Pharisees seem to have stuck more to traditional Semitic anthropology (i.e. that the "soul" itself perishes at death).

    Judging by the broad reception of the Hebrew apocalypse of Daniel (which explicitly foresees a future resurrection and different destinies for the righteous and wicked in ch. 12) in the wake of the persecution of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, I would say that it was this Maccabean crisis that fomented a broader acceptance of apocalypticism in Judaism. These notions are quite robust in the post-Maccabean literature that comments on the events of 168-163 BC (especially 2 Maccabees and 4 Maccabees). Three notions appear in this literature that first appear in some form in Daniel: (1) A future resurrection of the righteous (2 Maccabees 7:9, 11, 14, 21-23, 31-38, 12:44-45, 14:43-46; as for 4 Maccabees, it has immortality of the soul instead, cf. 9:22, 14:5-6, 16:13, 17:12, 18:23), which offered solace and hope to those who perished in the perseuction for maintaining their traditions. (2) That the deaths of the Maccabean martyrs were not in vain but that they offered an atoning sacrifice on the behalf of the rest of the people (4 Maccabees 6:28-30, 17:21-22), an idea that made their deaths more meaningful, and (3) A future divine punishment for all those who tortured the Jews unto death (4 Maccabees 9:7-9), which conformed the horrific events of the persecution to a notion of justice. All three of those notions are prominent in the NT in one form or another. The development of a notion of "hell" responded to questions of theodicy: How could God has let his faithful people die and without the persecutors being punished themselves? The answer that apocalypticism provided was that the faithful did not die in vain but will be brought back to life, blessed with eternal reward, and the wicked will similarly be punished for what they did. Of course, the eschatology was not only focused on this single event but looked to a general resurrection and judgment where everyone would be judged (cf. 1 Enoch 1:9, quoted in Jude 14-15).

    The parts of the NT that dabble in apocalypticism reflect this scenario at least in part; other parts of the NT show no dependance on such concepts about a future judgment. On the nature of the punishment, how long it lasts and whether it has conscious torture, there are many statements both in the NT and outside it that reveal the scope of apocalyptic beliefs on how the dead will treated after the resurrection:

    "When their sons perish and they see the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, until the great day of their judgment (téi hémerai tés megalés tés kriseós) and consummation, until eternal judgment (to krima tou aiónas ton aiónón) is consummated. Then they will be led away to the fiery abyss (eis to khaos tou puros) and to the torture (basanon), and to the prison (desmótérion) where they will be confined forever (sunkleiseós aiónos). And everyone who is condemned and destroyed henceforth will be bound together with them until the consummation of their generation" (1 Enoch 10:11-13, written in the late third century BC, paraphrased in Jude 6-7).
    "These hollow places [in Sheol] are so the spirits of the souls of the dead (ta pneumata tón psukhón tón nekrón) may be gathered in them ... created for the spirits of the sinners, when they die and are buried in the earth, and judgment has not been executed on them in their life. Here their spirits (ta pneumata autón) are separated for this great torment (eis tén megalén basanon tautén), until the great day of judgment, of scourges and tortures (basanón) of the accursed forever (mekhri aiónos), that there might be a recompense for their spirits. There he will bind them forever (dései autous mekhris aiónos)" (1 Enoch 22:3, 10-11; written in the late third century BC).
    "Then his judgment took place. First among the stars, they received their judgment and were found guilty, and they went to the place of condemnation, and they were thrown into an abyss, full of fire and flame and full of the pillar of fire. Then those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty; and they were cast into that fiery abyss. In the meantime, I saw how another abyss like it, full of fire, was opened wide in the middle of the ground; and they brought those blinded sheep [sinners], all of which were judged, found guilty, and cast into this fiery abyss, and they were burned" (1 Enoch 90:24-26; the Animal Apocalypse was written c. 160 BC, and was quoted as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas).
    "Woe to you sinners, because of the words of your hands! On account of the deeds of your wicked ones, in blazing flames worse than fire, it shall burn... Know that down to Sheol they will lead your souls and there they will be in great distress, and in darkness and in a snare and in a flaming fire. Into great judgment your souls will enter, and the great judgment will be for all the generations of eternity" (1 Enoch 100:9, 103:7-8; the Epistle of Enoch was written in the mid-second century BC).
    "The judgment of all who walk in such [wicked] ways will bring an abundance of afflictions (lrwb ngw`ym) at the hands of the angels of perdition (m'lky chbl), for eternal damnation (lshcht 'wlmym) in the wrath of God's furious vengeance, with terror and shame without end (lz`wtntsch wchrpt), with a humiliating destruction by fire in the darkness (`m klmt klh b-'sh mchshkym). For all eternity (qtsyhm), generation by generation (ldwrwtm), they will spend in bitter weeping (b-'bl) and harsh evils (ygwn wr`t) in dark abysses (b-hwywt chwshd) without any remnant nor rescue from destruction" (1 QS 4:11-14; the Qumran Community Rule was written in the late second century BC)
    "Woe to the nations that rise against my people, the Lord Almighty will requite them; in the day of judgment (hémerai kriseós) he will punish (ekdikései) them, he will send fire (dounai pur) and worms into their flesh, and they shall burn and suffer forever (klausontai en aisthései heós aiónos)" (Judith 16:17; written in the late second century BC).
    "There shall no more be Beliar's spirit of error, because he will be thrown into the eternal fire (embléthésetai en tói puri eis ton aióna), and those who died in sorrow shall be raised in joy ... and those who died on account of the Lord shall be wakened to life. And the deer of Jacob shall run with gladness, the eagles of Jacob shall fly with joy, the impious shall mourn (penthésousi) and the sinners shall weep (klausontai), but all the peoples shall glorify the Lord forever" (Testament of Judah 25:3-5; written in the first century BC).
    "Until eternity (aiónos) those who are like Cain in their moral corruption and hatred of brother shall be punished with a similar judgment (kolasei krithésontai)" (Testament of Benjamin 7:5; written in the first century BC).
    "Flee from sexual promiscuity, and order your wives and your daughters not to adorn their heads and their appearances so as to deceive men's sound minds. For every woman who schemes in these ways is destined for eternal punishment (eis aióna tén kolasin). For it was thus that they charmed the Watchers, who were before the Flood" (Testament of Gad 5:5-6; written in the first century BC).
    "Put us to the test then, tyrant; and if you [i.e. Antiochus Epiphanes] take our lives for the sake of our religion, do not think you can harm us with your torments (basanizón). By our suffering and endurance (kakopatheias kai hupomonés) we shall obtain the prize of virtue and shall be with God, on whose account we suffer. But you, because of our foul murder, will suffer (karteréseis) at the hand of divine justice the everlasting torment by fire (aionión basanon dia puros) you deserve" (4 Maccabees 9:7-9; written in the first century AD).
    "Are you [Antiochus] not ashamed to receive your kingdom with all its blessings from the hand of God and then to kill those who serve him and torture (streblósai) those who practice piety? In return for this, justice will hold you in store for an intense and everlasting fire (puknoteró kai aionió puri) and for torments (basanois) which will never let you go for all time (ai eis holon ton aióna)" (4 Maccabees 12:11-12).
    "It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into Gehenna (eis tén Geennan), into the fire that never goes out (eis to pur to asbeston)" (Mark 9:43, written in c. 70 AD).
    "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home -- these he has kept in dense darkness (hupo zophon), bound with everlasting chains (desmois aidiois) for judgment on the great day (eis krisin megalés hémeras). In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire (puros aióniou dikén)" (Jude 6-7, paraphrasing 1 Enoch 10:11-13; written in the late first century AD)
    "Many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the outer darkness (eis to skotos to exóteron), where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (ho klauthmos kai ho brugmos tón odontón).... The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace (kaminon tou puros), where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (ho klauthmos kai ho brugmos tón odontón). Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father... It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire (to pur to aiónion)... It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of Gehenna (eis tén geennan tou puros).... When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats ... Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire (eis to pur to aiónion) prepared for the devil and his angels' ... Then they will go away to eternal punishment (eis kolasin aiónion), but the righteous to eternal life" (Matthew 8:11-12,13:41-43, 18:8-9, 25:31-32, 41, 46; written in the late first century AD).
    "These are the servants of all creation who come to the souls of ungodly men and bring them and leave them in this place. They spend three days going around with them in the air before they bring them and cast them into their eternal punishment.... I turned back and walked and I saw a great sea. But I thought that it was a sea of water. I discovered that it was entirely a sea of flame like a slime which casts forth much flame and whose waves burn sulphur and bitumen... I saw all the souls sinking in it. I saw some whose hands were bound to their neck, with their hands and feet being fettered. I said, 'Who are these?' He said to me, 'These are the ones who were bribed and they were given gold and silver until the souls of men were led astray.' And I saw others covered with mats of fire. I said, 'Who are these?' He said to me, 'These are the ones who give money at interest, and they receive interest for interest.' And I saw some blind ones crying out" (Apocalypse of Zephaniah 4:7, 6:1-2, 10:4-8; written in the first century AD).
    "They [the Essenes] believe that every soul is immortal (psukhén pasan men aphtharton), but that only the souls of the righteous receive other bodies ... while those of the wicked are punished with an everlasting punishment (aidiói timória kolazesthai)....[The Sadducees] do not believe in an immortal soul and the punishments (timórias) and rewards in Hades" (Josephus, Bellum Judaicum, 163, 165; written in the laste first century AD).
    "They [the Pharisees] believe that souls have immortal power (athanaton te iskhun tais psukhais), and that there are rewards and judgments under the earth (hupo khthonos dikaióseis) for those who have done well or badly in their life. Evil souls (psukhias kakias) are detained in an eternal prison (heirgmon aidion), while virtuous ones have an easy route to a new life" (Josephus, Antiquities 18.14; written in the late first century AD).
    "The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment (huparkhón en basanois), he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame (odunómai en té phlogi tauté) ... in this place of torment (eis ton topon touton tés basanou)" (Luke 16:22-24, 28; written in the late first century AD)
    "And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them. And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn, but judgment alone shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong. And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep. Then the pit of torment (lacus tormenti) shall appear, and opposite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of Gehenna (clibanus Gehennae) shall appear, and opposite it the Paradise of delight. Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, 'Look now, and understand whom you have denied ... Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are fire and torments (ignis et tormenta)" (4 Ezra 7:32-38; written in the late first century AD).
    "Then those who have now abused my ways shall be amazed, and those who have rejected them with contempt shall dwell in torments (cruciamentis). For as many as did not acknowledge me in their lifetime, although they received my benefits, and as many as scorned my Law while they still had freedom, and did not understand but despised it while an opportunity for repentance was still open to them, these must in torment (in crucimento) acknowledge it after death (post mortem cognoscere). Therefore, do not continue to be curious as to how the ungodly will be punished (impii cruciabuntur), but inquire how the righteous will be saved" (4 Ezra 9:9-13).
    "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with fire and sulphur (basanisthésetai en puri kai theió) in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever (ho kapnos tou basanismou autón eis aiónas aiónón). There is no rest day or night (ouk ekhousin anapausin hémeras kai nuktos) for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name... And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur (eis tén limnén tou pur kai theió), where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (basanisthésontai hémeras kai nuktos eis tous aiónas ton aiónón)... And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire (eis tén limnén tou puros)" (Revelation 14:9-11, 20:10-15; written in c. AD 95).
    "The time is coming which will remain forever, and there is the new world which does not carry back to corruption those who enter into its beginning, and which has no mercy on those who come into torment or those who are living in it, and it does not carry to perdition. For those are the ones who will inherit this time of which it is spoken, and to these is the heritage of the promised time. These are they who prepared for themselves treasures of wisdom ... for the coming world will be given to these, but the habitation of many others will be in the fire" (2 Baruch 44:12-15; written in the late first century or early second century AD).
    "And it came to pass when the sun was setting, and behold a smoke like that of a furnace ... and behold, in this light a fiery Gehenna was enkindled, and a great crowd in the likeness of men. They all were changing in aspect and shape, running and changing form and prostrating themselves and crying aloud words I did not know...[And the Eternal, Mighty One said:] I will burn with fire those who mocked them and ruled over them in this age and I will deliver those who have covered me with mockery over to the scorn of the coming age. Because I have prepared them to be food for the fire of Hades, and to be ceaseless soaring in the air of the underworld of the uttermost depths, to be the contents of a wormy belly ... for they shall putrefy in the belly of the crafty worm Azazel, and be burned by the fire of Azazel's tongue" (Apocalypse of Abraham 15:1, 6-7, 31:2-6; written in the second century AD)
    "And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place. And there were certain ones there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up, and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.... And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes, and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness....And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God" (Apocalypse of Peter 20-23, 27, 33; written around the middle of the second century AD)
    "He shall raise all men from the dead, and appoint some to be incorruptible, immortal, and free from sorrow in the everlasting and imperishable kingdom; but shall send others away to the everlasting punishment of fire (eis kolasin aiónion puros)" (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 117.3; written in c. AD 155).
    "This, then, to speak shortly, is what we expect and have learned from Christ, and teach. And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked (kolasein tous adikous) who came before them, and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their souls (tois autois sómasi meta tón psukhón ginomenón) which are now to undergo everlasting punishment (aiónian kolasin kolasthésomenón); and not only ... for a period of a thousand years" (Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 8.3-5; written in c. AD 156).
    "Each man goes to everlasting punishment (aiónian kolasin) or salvation according to the value of his actions. If all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire (aiónian dia puros katadikén); but would by all means restrain himself, and adorn himself with virtue" (Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 12.1-2).
    "Even when the martyrs were so torn by whips that the internal structure of their flesh was visible as far as the inner veins and arteries, they endured so patiently that even the bystanders had pity and wept. But they themselves reached such a level of bravery that not one of them uttered a cry or a groan, thus showing to us all that at the very hour when they were being tortured (basanizomenoi) the martyrs of Christ were absent from the flesh, or that the Lord was conversing with them. And turning their thoughts to the grace of Christ they despised the tortures (basanón) of this world, purchasing at the cost of one hour an exemption from eternal punishment (tén aiónion kolasin)....But Polycarp said: 'You threaten with a fire that burns only briefly and after just a little while is extinguished, for you are ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and eternal punishment (to tés mellouses kriseós kai aióniou kolaseós pur), which is reserved for the ungodly' " (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:2-3, 11:2; written c. AD 155-160).
    "Then you will see that though your lot of on earth, God lives in heaven, then you will begin to declare the mysteries of God ... and condemn the deceit and error of the world, when you realize what the true life in heaven is, when you despise the apparent death here on earth, when you fear the real death, which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the eternal fire (katakrithésomenois eis to pur to aiónion) which will punish (kolasei) to the very end those delivered to it" (Epistle to Diognetus 10:7; written in the middle of the second century AD).
    "Among those who had denied [Christ] was a woman of the name of Biblias. The devil, thinking that he had already swallowed her, and wishing to damn her still more by making her accuse falsely, brought her forth to punishment (kolasin), and employed force to constrain her, already feeble and spiritless, to utter accusations of atheism against us. But she, in the midst of the tortures, came again to a sound state of mind, and awoke as it were out of a deep sleep; for the temporary suffering (tés proskairou timorias) reminded her of the eternal punishment in Gehenna (tén aiónion en Geennéi kolasin), and she contradicted the accusers of Christians, saying, 'How can children be eaten by those who do not think it lawful to partake of the blood of even brute beasts?' And after this she confessed herself a Christian" (Epistle From the Church of Lyons and Vienna, 1.25; written in c. AD 177-178).
    "I am obedient to God to whom you should also submit and believe. If you remain unbelieving for the time being, you will be convinced hereafter, when you are tormented with eternal punishments (aióniois timóriais)....But do you also, if you please, give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures, and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments (tas aionious kolaseis), and obtaining the eternal prizes of God....But to the unbelieving and despisers, who obey not the truth, but are obedient to unrighteousness, when they shall have been filled with adulteries and fornications, and filthiness, and covetousness, and unlawful idolatries, there shall be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish, and at the last everlasting fire (pur aiónion) shall possess such men" (Theophilus of Antioch, Ad Autolycum, 1.14; written in the late second century AD).

    These quotes put the NT references in a broader context and show that the belief in a conscious torture in eschatological fire was not subsequent to early Christianity but preceded it in the Judaism from whence it came. Most striking are the statements comparing the tortures of Gehenna or eternal fire with the (temporary) tortures endured by those facing persecution, see especially the quotes from 4 Maccabees (regarding Antiochus Epiphanes), the Martyrdom of Polycarp (who incidentally was a lifelong Christian born in the first century), and the Epistle of the Church of Lyons and Vienna. Also notable is the fact that the early Enochic statements from the Book of Watchers are themselves paraphrased in the NT itself.

    It should be stressed however that not ALL statements regarding the day of judgment refer only to conscious punishment and torment, some equivocate between eternal punishment by torture and eternal destruction. A good example of the latter is this:

    "The one who does these things will never be disturbed by evil; the flame of fire and anger against the unrighteous shall not touch him when it goes out from the Lord's presence against sinners to destroy the sinners' every assurance.... And the inheritance of the sinners is destruction and darkness, and their lawless actions shall pursue them down into Hades... And sinners shall perish forever in the day of the Lord's judgment, when God oversees the earth at his judgment. But those who fear the Lord shall find mercy in it and shall live by their God's mercy, but sinners shall perish for all time" (Psalms of Solomon 15:4-5, 10-13; written in the first century AD).

    Other examples can be found in the Testament of Dan 10:3, 1 Enoch 53:2 (from the Book of Parables), Ascension of Isaiah 4:18, and probably in the NT at 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and Hebrews 10:27. Many of these statements are ambiguous because "eternal destruction" could be taken to mean an "eternal process of destruction that lasts forever" or an annihilationist sense of a "state of utter destruction that will last forever". While references that mention pain, torture, gnashing of teeth, and other activities would certainly demand a process, other statements could be interpreted as referring to a state, such as the Psalms of Solomon passage. It is also possible that this ambiguity was sometimes used to take a position counter to the traditional apocalyptic one. By conferring canonical or inspired status to Matthew and Revelation, the early Church inherited the apocalypticism inherent in those texts and some writers did not really want to endorse the theology implicit therein. The Apocalypse of Peter hinted that in reality the torture doesn't last forever but if everyone knew that, everyone would sin anyway. Origen believed (like the Persians before him) that the fire was intended only to purify and heal the soul (i.e. the "purgation of souls") and was only temporary:

    "There are also many other things which escape our notice, and are known to Him alone who is the physician of our souls. For if, on account of those bad effects which we bring upon ourselves by eating and drinking, we deem it necessary for the health of the body to make use of some unpleasant and painful drug, sometimes even, if the nature of the disease demand, requiring the severe process of the amputating knife, and if the virulence of the disease shall transcend even these remedies, the evil has at last to be burned out by fire. How much more is it to be understood that God our Physician, desiring to remove the defects of our souls, which they had contracted from their different sins and crimes, should employ penal measures of this sort, and should apply even, in addition, the punishment of fire to those who have lost their soundness of mind! ... By which certainly it is understood that the fury of God’s vengeance is profitable for the purgation of souls. That the punishment, also, which is said to be applied by fire, is understood to be applied with the object of healing, is taught by Isaiah as well" (Origen, De Principiis 2.10.6).

    A similar point of view is expressed in Sibylline Oracles 2:285-338: "All these at once the angels of the immortal everlasting God will punish terribly from above with whips of flame, having bound them around with fiery chains and unbreakable bonds. Then, in the dead of night, they will be thrown under many terrible infernal beasts in Gehenna, where there is immeasurable darkness. But when they have inflicted many punishments on all whose heart is evil, then later a fiery wheel from the great river will press them hard all around, because they were concerned with wicked deeds...In places unholy they will repay threefold what evil deed they committed, burning in much fire. They will all gnash their teeth, wasting away with thirst and raging violence. They will call death fair, and it will evade them. No longer will death or night give these rest...The pious ones are given another thing by the imperishable God, the universal ruler. Whenever they ask the imperishable God to save men from the raging fire and deathless gnashing he will grant it, and he will do this. For he will pick them out again from the undying fire and set them elsewhere and send them on account of his own people to another eternal life with the immortals" (written in the second century AD).

    In one of the manscripts of the Sibylline Oracles, a copyist wrote his own comment in the margin demurring from this statement: "Plainly false. For the fire which tortures the condemned will never cease. Even I would pray that this be so, though I am marked with very great scars of faults, which have need of very great mercy. But let babbling Origen be ashamed of saying that there is a limit of punishment".

    To go back to your original question, I would say most definitely yes, some Bible writers did think that people would suffer in a burning "hell," whether called Gehenna or the "fiery furance" or by some other name. We may not like that, we may want to dispense with this concept in our own personal theology (which good reasom imho), we may want to mitigate it by recasting it in neutral, or euphemistic terms, but the blunt and clearly recognizable language in certain NT passages shows that the concept was not "foreign" to the NT as the Society would have it. It did not "later" emerge in Christianity through a "great apostasy," it was there in the very beginning as it was a very common concept already in Judaism (just as resurrection was).

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Great summary and anthology Leolaia.

  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    Leolaia, all I can say is WOW. I can see why AA wanted your input.

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