Symbolism in Revelation Points to the Watchtower - Leolaia HELP

by jgnat 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  jgnat

  We're studying Rev. Grand Climax, Chapter 14 (Revelation 4:5). Amazingly, tongue-in-cheek, much of the symbolism points to the Watchtower. I suspect the society is glossing over a rich revelatory tradition and contemporary literature. According to the society,

  Lightning represents flashes of enlightenment and judgement from Jehovah.(sound familiar? Almost like a boat tacking in the wind..)

  The voices from the throne represent the preaching work.

  The seven lamps of fire represent the enlightening force of the Holy Spirit.

  The glassy sea represents the cleansing recorded Word of God. (big stretch here)

  Cherubs, well, I have no argument with cherubs. The society ties them in with Ezekiel, nothing wrong with that.

  The lion represends the pursuit of justice and righteousness.

  The bull represents power, dynamic energy.

  The face of the man represents love.

  The eagle represents farsighted wisdom.

  I wonder, what did these symbols really mean to early Jews and Christians? If I have time later, I'll see if I can find some of this stuff. But if Leolaia has any material handy (hint, hint)....
• 

  Marcel

  for me the daniel book and the revelation book is pure fiction. they take a verse in the bible and interpret as much as they like into its words. in almost every cases there is NO logical explantion for the appliance of the scripture. every they write is a fact because its they say so. the problem is that they know how the JWs look like and how todays world situation is and see the scripture in that light, searching for things in that highly symbolic verses which could fit and they use it. if you read it open minded you would never come to the conclusion that john speaks of the JWs in the endtime.
  
  i had that feeling of "random appliance" of scriptures all my life when we studied the daniel or revelation book.
  one of the better books is the greatest man book. its like the gospels: simple and without much space to interpret. of course some of the interpretations in this book may be still wrong.
  
  sorry, for not helping you directly, but i think its very hard to interpret the revelation properly. if not impossible.
• 

  drew sagan

  The Revelation book is a prime example of how the Watchtower Societies "studies" are nothing more than eisegetial nonsense.
  
  You might find it interesting to do a study of the four main different ways the book has been interpreted mainly:
  
  Preterist, Idealist, Historicist , Futurist
  
  IMO it's the people that hold to the Historicist view that go overboard the most. Learning about the different methods people have used to interpret the book actually shocked me when I first was coming out of the Watchtower (not that it shocks me anymore). Funny how just knowing that there where particular methods to interpretation and that we weren't told these as JWs really had an impression on me.
• 

  Narkissos

  Just a few general remarks here for now:

  The extant book of Revelation (which may have included some earlier Jewish material) is one Christian sample of a broader literary genre, usually called "apocalypse". Comparative study of similar works (Enoch, Daniel, 2 Baruch, 4 Esdras etc.) certainly reveals (!) a number of common or similar images, symbols, etc., some of which may have a conventional "meaning" explicit in some texts and implicit in others. However, quite counter-intuitively to modern readers, apocalypses are generally clear in that they contain their own interpretation. The "visions" are cryptic, but their meaning is explained in plain terms by an angel or another heavenly figure.

  One methodological mistake, imo, is to overinterpret apocalypses by looking for "meaning" in every detail, even in the interpretive parts, transforming the whole book into a term-to-term allegory and making every word a riddle to be unciphered beyond its plain sense. This of course favours wild anachronistic interpretations (and unlimited power for the self-appointed interpreters over their audience). All of this vanishes when you focus on the interpretations contained in the text itself.
• 

  drew sagan

  All of this vanishes when you focus on the interpretations contained in the text itself.

  Three cheers for the voice of reason! But of course by taking the 'plain sense' you are never going to be as exciting as let's say....
  
  
• 

  Terry

  I onced asked a very intelligent older Witness a question that flustered him and made him sputter.

  I'll repeat it now.

  What is the point in NOT coming out and simply SAYING what you mean? Why disguise meaning in symbol?

  Where is the advantage to that?

  Is it communication if guesswork is the fundamental approach?

  What if our teachers taught school this way? Would the already meager education system plunge into the abyss?

  God may be the poorest communicator in all of history because he just can't seem to spit it out!

  Symbolism is not communication; it is obfuscation wrapped in metaphor.

  (edited to say: Poetry deals with emotional significance. It is personal only because we can fill in the spaces with our own interpretation. The bible has stacked poetry, metaphor, significance and generalized mythos into capsules to be swallowed like a placebo. The hypochondriac loves the aftertaste!)
• 

  juni

  Terry said:

  What is the point in NOT coming out and simply SAYING what you mean? Why disguise meaning in symbol?

  My daughter brought up a point to me. She feels what else would we expect from John (an old man) who had been a prisoner on the isle of Patmos. He no doubt was speaking as a crazy person. Hallucinating. I never thought of it that way.

  Anyone else think of it from that angle?

  Juni
• 

  dedpoet

  My daughter brought up a point to me. She feels what else would we expect from John (an old man) who had been a prisoner on the isle of Patmos. He no doubt was speaking as a crazy person. Hallucinating. I never thought of it that way.

  Anyone else think of it from that angle?

  I have often thought that, juni. especially as the cave on Patmos where he
  supposedly had his vision has magic mushrooms growing close by. Maybe
  hw "saw" all this stuff after tucking in to a plateful of mushroom stew..
• 

  Zico

  I read somewhere... I can't remember where: John wrote Revelation at a time when Christians were being persecuted by Romans, so the book was very anti-Roman, and John possibly wrote it then as a book predicting the downfall of Rome (Babylon the Great) but wrote it in 'symbols' and 'visions' so that any Romans reading it wouldn't understand, but using language a Christian at the time would understand. In that case, I doubt the writer intended it to receive interpretation 2000 years later. I don't know if it's right, but it makes sense to me.
• 

  Justitia Themis

  Just yesterday I researched Revelation 4:5, especially the issue of "lightning" equalling enlightenment. Phrases dealing with thunder and lightning form a motif that runs through Revelation. Notice the other scriptures:

  Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

  Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great. Blue Letter Bible. All of these scriptures deal with judgement, not enlightement. In the Revelation book, they go from the word "light" to "lightning" to "enlightenment." Light, which can refer to increased knowledge, is not the same as lightning. Justitia