Symbolism in Revelation Points to the Watchtower - Leolaia HELP

by jgnat 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    To the "mushroom fans" I'd add that the literary analysis of apocalypses in general and Revelation in particular points to a very conscious intellectual process of composition combining textual allusions and references with a particular "world vision" including political and religious ideology. The "fantastic" effect is due, in part, to our reading those texts from a completely different cultural perspective, in part to the real creative quality of the works.

    Terry's question (why symbols instead of plain expression) is interesting. Hiding the meaning from real or potential persecutors is a common answer, but it is not always relevant: not all apocalypses belong to a persecution context; the meaning is clear anyway from the included interpretations (no ancient reader could miss the description of Rome in Revelation 17--18). Another obvious motive is to vest the message with divine authority: the writer first receives a supernatural vision which he doesn't understand, then a supernatural messenger explains it (cf. the role of trance and interpretation in Greek prophecy). But more deeply, this raises the question of the use of non-verbal symbols along with language in communication in general. By using them, and constantly shifting from the visible to the intelligible and the other way around, we mean an excess -- whether this is construed as an excess of meaning over "mere words" or an excess of reality (even "imaginary" reality) over meaning. Paradoxically, a part of communication consists in pointing to what is lost in, or left out of, verbal communication.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Thank you, Leolaia, that was exactly what I was looking for.

    ...arbitrary, deterministic eisegesis in place of cautious and careful exegesis...

    Like looking up the word origins for stauros, for instance, and concluding that Jesus was impaled on a stake?

    ...swallow such whoppers as the interpretation of the seven trumpets as convention declarations from the 1920s...

    Whoppers, I like that.

    ....Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... seven churches of ch. 1-3 ....are literally to the churches of Sardis, Ephesus, Smyrna, etc. ...

    Kind of obvious. I was similarly gobsmacked when my hubby studied that these seven churches are various congregations of the Witnesses. Such variety of churches, behaviors, problems! But I thought the modern Kingdom Halls were all unitedly together of one mind?

    ... what John is describing is a non-symbolic description of heaven, complete with a glassy sea, lampstands, and angelic creatures...The glassy sea, for instance, is usually understood in light of Genesis 1, the heavenly ocean created by God by separating the waters of the deep...

    Thank you, I'd always wondered about that glassy sea.

    ...It is more important to focus on the action of the vision...in this case ...describing ...Christ's heavenly own installation as Lord and King...

    I think the studies might go along more swimmingly if they focussed on the action as well. *yawn*

    ...whether an eagle is really an eagle or a lampstand is really a lampstand...

    I like that. Armed with this information I might ask a few more questions, such as:

    1. If the seas over the heavens were mentioned in Genesis, might they be talking about a literal heavenly sea here?
    2. On what determination did the writers of this book use to pick a literal or figurative interpretation? Might a lampstand just be a lampstand?
    3. Lightning is pretty hard to read by.
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I should add that Revelation 4-5 belongs to the stream of merkabah mysticism which began in Ezekiel and which flowered in later Judaism and the object of this literature is to describe the glories of heaven and the throne of God, just as Paul was about to do in 2 Corinthians 12 (i.e. reporting the truly majestic and awesome things to be seen in heaven) before he stopped himself as he realized that such excesses would go against the purpose of the letter.

    jgnat...It's kind of like dream interpretation. Some things in our dreams may be symbolic but much of what we dream isn't; it's just regurgitated stuff from TV watching or our day's experiences. Similarly, much of the imagery in Revelation is regurgitated stuff from the OT and apocalyptic traditions without necessarily having any "deeper meaning". The imagery is used because it might add emotional impact or it just "sounds right", more often it gives an OT prophetic ring to a book that claims to belong to the prophetic tradition. But if you look at the way in which the book appropriates OT language and motifs, you may notice certain patterns (such as in applying Yahweh-oriented language to Jesus) that tell you something about the author's conceptual framework.

    About the heavenly sea motif, one may compare other merkabah visions from the first century BC onward:

    "I entered the first heaven and saw there much water suspended. And again I saw a second heaven much brighter and more lustrous, for there was a measureless height in it" (Testament of Levi 2:7-8).
    "I saw all the secrets in heaven and how a kingdom breaks up and how the actions of the people are weighed in the balance ... My eyes saw the secrets of lightning and thunder, and the mysteries of the winds, how they are distributed in order to blow upon the earth, and the secrets of the clouds and the dew I saw there from where they proceed in that place and how from there they satiate the dew of the earth. At that place, I saw sealed storerooms from which the winds of the storerooms of hail and the winds of the storerooms of mist are distributed, and these clouds hover the earth from the beginning of the world... At that place, I saw the One to whom belongs the time before time, and his head was white like wool and there was with him another individual whose face was like a human being... and [I saw] all the storerooms of water in the heavens above in addition to all the fountains of water which are on the earth. And all the waters shall be united with all other waters. That which is from the heavens above is masculine water, whereas that which is underneath the earth is feminine ... When the rain-wind becomes activated in its reservoir, the angels come and open the reservoir and let it out, and when it is sprayed over the whole earth, it becomes united with the water which is upon the earth " (1 Enoch 41:1-4, 46:1, 54:7-8, 60:21-22).
    "And it came about, when I had spoken to my sons, those men called me. And they took me up onto their wings, and carried me up to the first heaven, and placed me on the clouds. And, behold, they were moving. And there I perceived the air higher up, and higher still I saw the ether. And they placed me on the first heaven. And they showed me a vast ocean, much bigger than the earthly ocean" (2 Enoch 3:1-3).
    "And when I had been taught all these things by the archangel, he took me to a third heaven. And I saw an unbroken plain and in the middle of it was a lake of water...This plain which surrounds the lake, and in which are other mysteries, is the place where the souls of the righteous come when they assemble, living together choir by choir. And the water is that which the clouds receive to send as rain upon the earth" (3 Baruch 10:1-2, 5-6).
  • Open mind
    Open mind

    Terry said:

    What is the point in NOT coming out and simply SAYING what you mean? Why disguise meaning in symbol?
    Where is the advantage to that?

    This astute discussion will now be interrupted by a "vision" I had of a JW Apologist bobble-headed doll popping up to reply to Terry's question.

    "That's so all you higher-educated types can't see the message right off the bat. You've got to be humble enough to listen to the glassy-eyed drones standing on the street corner handing out death rags. And then submit yourself to whatever hallucinogenic modern-day interpretation they give for John's 1900 year old vision."

    Then they'll drag out one of their favorite education bashing scriptures like Matt 11:25 "you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes."

    Babes = F&D Slave of course.

    OK. Knee-jerk dub rant is over. Turning this back over to you folks who have done some actual "Bible study".

    Open Mind

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Just one word about the lightnings and thunders (especially as expressed, along with brontai, by the Semitism phônai, "voices," cf. Hebrew qol, 4:5; 6:1; 8:5; 11:19; 14:2; 16:18; 19:6): they are age-old, universal, but especially Canaanite features of theophanies (manifestations of gods, particularly Ba`al/Yhwh as the storm-god, like Zeus-Jupiter); cf. the "seven voices / thunders" (10:3f) from Psalm 29 (seven mentions of "Yhwh's 'voice'"), which has direct Ugaritic parallels. Once again, those features do not mean anything but the actual manifestation of a heavenly g-God.

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles

    I see I did not miss much at the book study!

    Classy sea like Crystal represents, cleansing of the royal priesthood before entering into Jehovah's presence?

    They claim that the royal priesthood(24 elders) must have been cleansed by his Word.

    24 elders represented non other than anointed ones of the Christain congregation, resurrected and occupying the heavenly position Jehovah promised them. How do we know that?

    24 elders portrays Jesus anointed footstep follower in their heavenly position, For Jesus made a covenant with them to sit on the thrones in his Kingdom. Luke 22:28-30.

    Only Jesus and these 24 elders not even the angels are described as ruling in heaven in Jehovah's presence.

    Let make a jump and make the 24 elders a division "When completed, there will be 24 divisions, each with 6,000 conquerors, for Revelation 14:1-4 TELLS US THAT 144,000 (24X6,000) are bought from mankind.

    Since the number 12 signifies a divinely balanced organization, 24 doubles-or strengthens-such an arrangement.

    LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL

    Where is this in the bible.

    I think Jesus made a covenant with his apostles at Luke 22:28-30. Perhaps they are the ones who are allowed to judge the 12 tribes and nothing more.

    Who knows perhaps everyone else is going to be a part of the chosen raise, royal priest hood, holy nationa people for special possession.

    I am looking up 1 Pet 2:9 it looks like the left out the rest of this scripture.

    " But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may delcare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have recieved mercy."

    SOUNDS LIKE EVERYONE WHO IS CALLED OUT OF DARKNESS! Are we people belonging to God?

    I think the 24 elders are a different group than royal priesthood,144,000, or the ones sitting on the thrones to juged the 12 tribes.

    I think that we all are cleansed by the word of God! those who believe in Jesus and Jehovah.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    And it is from the same theophanic tradition that the bat qol concept arose in merkabah literature, which shares some features in common with the "voice" and "thunders" in Revelation.

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    My Sunday school teacher believed that the writer of Revelation had a copy of Daniel open on his desk because the symbology is so similar. Most scholars agree that Daniel was written between 164-167 b.c. when the Jews were under heavy persecution by the Greeks. He believed that Revelations was written during heavy persecution by the Romans, especially the Emporer Trajan. The message of both books appears to be the same. HANG ON! God is going to take care of this! The symbology appears to refer to the governments and individuals that were in the writers time and there is no justification for applying that to future modern day events. The writing of the book in common greek would indicate the the author was not the same as the Gospel of John writer whoever that was. It is also interesting that many of the early church fathers argued against including Revelation in the New Testament canon.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Good point Leolaia: it's a fascinating intertextual network covering, literally, millenia.

    As a side note, Revelation 10:4 was one of the passages I had in the back of my mind when I mentioned the excess of vision over interpretation as excess of "reality" over "meaning" (or, of visible over intelligible): "And when the seven thunders had sounded, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down."

  • jgnat
    jgnat
    "Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down."

    Sometimes I wish, wish, dearly wish that the early church fathers HAD sealed (Revelation) up. But then again, people being who they are, would have found another outlet for their apocalyptic feeling. Thus I learned from Dostoevsky. How DID he understand human nature so well?

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