Was man created perfect?

moshe

The Bible explains that Adam and Eve were created human and because they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge Good and Evil, they became almost like God and the Angels.- Gen 3:22-24. They knew the difference between good and bad, which the rest of the animals did not. God kicked them out of the Garden of Eden to keep them from eating from the Tree of Life and becoming immortal- just like God. If they had been able to get to the Tree of Life, they could have lived forever. The implications are that Man was going to die anyway as a natural result of the life that God created. Humans do not die because of Sin and the loss of perfection. The first mention of sin in the Bible is in the Story of Cain and Abel, not Adam and Eve.

This means that mankind does not need a saviour to restore eternal life that Adam never had to start with, in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve are not responsible for our death or the notion that their sin has resulted in our death. 1 Cor 15:21-22

Man was always going to die, unless they ate of the Tree of Life and that never happened.

kid-A

All excellent points.

For me the most glaringly absurd premise of this fable is, how could they be held morally or ethically responsible for eating from the tree of knowledge of "good and evil" if they had no understanding or knowledge, a priori, of what "good and evil" even was? How can one be held accountable for a moral transgression if one has no awareness or comprehension of what even constitutes a "good" versus "evil" decision or course of action? The entire premise is inherently illogical.

Deputy Dog

moshe

The bible says "very good".

Gen 1:31

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, itwas very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I believe He created man in need of a savior from the beginning. I believe He felt that a human in need of God was a very good thing.

nvrgnbk

Chimps are better off than we are in many ways.

No vitamin C deficiency and fewer back problems.

bebu

I don't think man was created perfect. The text doesn't say even that, either.

I do think man was created very good. And I think that the situation portrays man being innocent, rather than perfect. What we often refer to as "loss of innocence" today usually refers to someone helpless and uncomprehending being victimized by someone evil. But 'loss of innocence' here was by default, inherent in disobedience. The situation is rather ironic, really.

bebu

gumby

Moshe,

If you remember a poster named Schizm, he started a thread that ended up about the Tree of Life and he actually made some interesting points along your line of thinking.

If you can read past all his crap, take a look.....especially pages 3 and 4

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/100759/3.ashx

Interesting thread Btw

Gumby

Cellist

None of it makes sense. Another inconsistency in the collection of books called "the Bible". First, humans are condemned for trying to know the difference between good and evil. Later, in the NT Paul's busy telling people they should "grow up" and learn to distinguish good from evil.

Cellist

kid-A

"The bible says "very good". Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, itwas very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

I fail to see the relevance of this to any of the questions raised by Moshe. What "gods" perception was is irrelevant, the principal "actors" of the story are "Adam and Eve", in terms of the choices they made, only their perception of the environment would be relevant. And by the accounts own words, they could not have known that their "choice" was sinful, since they had no conception of "good and evil" until after eating from the tree. Essentially, it was a set-up, with Adam and Eve playing "god's "patsies".

"I believe He created man in need of a savior from the beginning. I believe He felt that a human in need of God was a very good thing."

So you admit he deliberatly created "man" as defective and in misery, in order to fulfill the whole "saviour" drama? Any logical reason why a supposedly supremely intelligent being would do something so ridiculous and illogical? As for your latter hypothesis, if you had children, would you want them to worship you like a sycophant, and constantly be in need, as opposed to well-developed, mature, self-sufficient and self-actualized beings? What does it say about the personality of a being that is so hopelessly insecure as to require constant ego gratification and ass-kissing from his "created" sub-ordinates?

moshe

Man through the ages has had the idea of a life after death in the spirit world. That could still be a possibility for us. However, JW's have developed the dogma that they will live forever as humans on a paradise earth cleansed of all wicked men. Maybe the Garden of Eden story just doesn't support this notion at all. Resurrecting the dead back to life with the same sort of bodies, but now perfect and with all their old memories just never seemed to make sense to me when I was a JW. But, hey, the FDS said it was Truth and I accepted it for awhile.

Narkissos

One problem is the constant mixing of the two distinct creation stories in Genesis. The "very good" of Genesis 1:31 doesn't apply to a state "before the Fall" because there is nothing like "Fall" in the first story. Mankind (note the use of both singular and plural) as it is culminates creation, period.

An entirely different story begins in 2:4a, starting all over again in a different order. Here there is something like a (narrative) "fall," but it's a fall into reality as commonly perceived back then: at the end of the story man is what he actually is (and has ever been) to the author -- a sharer in godlike "knowledge," yet mortal, working to earn his living; woman bearing children, suffering and submitting to her husband. Neither the (unscriptural) notion of "perfection" nor the (otherwise scriptural) notion of "sin" belong to the story.

Was man created perfect?

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