by MichaelM 105 Replies latest jw friends
I am a current JW - need any questions - fire awy. You are correct - the yare right about many things
Their view that there is no trinity is total common sense.
their view that a God of love would not have a Hell Fire of eternal torment is also Total Common Sense
I respectfully request you check out 1914 thoroughly. And beware - once you get baptized there is no going back. Just be careful and make up your own mind. That is all you need to do.
Ya know, there was another thread just recently on why never-been-dubs come to this site and I stated my reasons there: I couldn't pull myself away from the horror stories I was reading. This thread epitomizes another reason that I didn't mention: How people reach out to help those whom they see as putting themselves in dangerous waters. I just want to say: I love you guys ...... poppers
Welcome MichaelM to the forum.
It was nice of you to stop by and perhaps we'll see more postings by you.
Take care. I wish you peace.
Juni
Please don't drink the kool-aid.
by the way, welcome to the forum
I just read MichaelM's bio- he sounds like a fun guy, full of life and the love of others.
A lot of things he is into will be discouraged once he is a full time JW. He can't socialize and laugh around with his "worldly" friends (which I am sure he has a lot of), he can't play any "dungeon" games, he will have to take an extremely judgmental view of the world and people around him.
All of these changes seem like they run completely counter to the grain of his personality.
So, sure MichaelM, if you want to lose everything that you stand for and enjoy doing, go ahead and become a JW.
Respectfully,
-Kudra
Good points, Kudra, I too read MichaelM's bio and thought similar things.
MichaelM, I should have said welcome previously. I am glad you are here!
(Delilah, thanks, Sweetie, you are so nice. I'm fine, really I am. I get a little worked up, but it passes.)
Well first he told me to avoid Internet stuff, but we sit back sometimes and view websites together and he usually has answers to every anti-JW topic and whatnot. He has said to just go to the Watchtower but I want a forum I can chat with other JW's.. I'm a social person but its hard to get out sometimes on a tight schedule.
If it means anything, I was a Witness for 18 years. I started studying when I was 9, and a year later my parents started studying. I left over one very serious issue. I was never disciplined in any way. I am, as far as I know, a Witness in good standing today.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that a child must present 2 eyewitnesses to "prove" an act of abuse. Realize what this means. It means that a child, must have 2 adults stand and watch while they are assaulted. Realize that this means the 2 adults cannot interfere for that means there was no child abuse. Realize also that in all 50 states for an adult to stand and watch a child being raped, and do nothing, is a crime.
Jehovah's Witnesses base this rule on the biblical scripture that says (to paraphrase) one must present 'two witnesses to prove a matter'. If I were sitting with your bible study conductor, I would ask him the following questions:
Michael, if it means anything, I am a survivor of child abuse. My father is still a ministerial servant, in good standing, even though he assaulted me for several years. The elders refused to take any action whatsoever against him because I did not have the good sense to make sure my rape was viewed by 2 adults. They refused to even talk to him about it.
I was 3 years old the first time he raped me.
Forgive me, but this is an area about which I feel strongly, but I feel anyone who condones (and by their actions even encourages) child abuse cannot be from the God of the Bible. It was on this conclusion that I left that sect.
With all due respect, I ask you to pose these thoughts to the Witness who studies with you. And if you do, watch how he reacts. If he responds with anger, or labels such questions as "it's all lies", realize how many children are like me -- except their abuse is happening right now, in 2007 (and not 1965). And this sect does not want to acknowledge it.
Michael -- if you understand or believe nothing else I've said, then hear this: Not every child who cries about their abuse is a liar. Some of us only wish we were lying.
Be well,
Chris
To stillaexjwelder you wrote:
Their view that there is no trinity is total common sense.
their view that a God of love would not have a Hell Fire of eternal torment is also Total Common Sense.
I have to say that the concept of God working as 3 forms for man's salvation does make sense, even though there is some scripture that seems to clearly separate God, his "active-force" LOL, and Christ, as all being different. Much scripture also shows possible proof of the "trinity" concept and this is why biblical scholars over the centuries have put it into the playbook after much scrutiny and research of the scriptures. What makes more sense is that the majority is more correct than the minority on the subject. But we know that this is where the WTS throws in the "False religion" teachings.
Also, do you think that the God of love who slaughtered men, WOMEN & CHILDREN, in the old testament and the God of love in revelation brutily killing the balance of humans on earth makes Total Common Sense? Just wondering.
MichaelM, - Some of the best research you can do on the Watchtower Society, as some might have already said here, is to look at all the flip-flopping of doctrine and "rules" that have been made by them. They like to call it "old light" and "new light". It's really quite stomach wrenching.
Example: decades ago, the WTS printed that one never gets baptized for or by means of an organization, and is not scriptural.....then later on they changed their "Baptizing Questions and statements" to include the name of their organization and giving faith and commitment to them as a part of the baptizing ritual. It's really rediculous. The person you are studying with is just going to give you tons of excuses, and dancing around the facts to make them look good. He/She will claim that all this stuff we are telling you is just to make them look bad.
Please use your good sense in making the decision to jump head first into this. Witnesses use a line stating "make sure of all things" as the scripture says. Heed that and DO IT.
Welcome to the forum.
2,276 views.
Just this should say something. I haven't read all of the posts, but I bet every person who viewed this thread, was just chomping at the bits, to give their 2 cents worth.
My only advice is: Research. Take nothing at face value. Just because somebody says it, does not make it so.
Greetings.
Blondie made a comment about reading things in context. I agree. The JWs "lift" verses out of the context to prove this or that point.
You guys may shoot me.....but, here is a letter I wrote to a woman concerning this point. We were discussing the "little flock" and "other sheep." This is the "little flock" portion.
If this is offensive to the board: someone tell me.
Michael, this kind of "reading in context" drives the JWs nuts....
(All quotes from the New World Translation) We will, now, discuss the "little flock." First, the concept that the nation of Israel was the "flock" of Jehovah was well embedded in the minds of the Jews. Note: Ps 95:7 For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasturage and the sheep of his hand.
Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, Ps 80:1 1 O Shepherd of Israel , do give ear,
You who are conducting Joseph just like a flock.
O you who are sitting upon the cherubs, do beam forth 23rd Psalm 1 Jehovah is my Shepherd.
I shall lack nothing. 2 In grassy pastures he makes me lie down;
By well-watered resting-places he conducts me. 3 My soul he refreshes.
He leads me in the tracks of righteousness for his name’s sake. 4 Even though I walk in the valley of deep shadow,
I fear nothing bad,
For you are with me;
Your rod and your staff are the things that comfort me. 5 You arrange before me a table in front of those showing hostility to me.
With oil you have greased my head;
My cup is well filled. 6 Surely goodness and loving-kindness themselves will pursue me all the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of Jehovah to the length of days. When Jesus arrived on the scene he began to gather a group of people from amoung the Jewish nation. Notice what he called them: Math 10:6: 6 but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel . A few verses earlier, Jesus made this comment in Math 9: 36: . 36 On seeing the crowds he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd So, Jesus is gathering a group of sheep within the larger flock of Israel . This flock of diciples would be smaller than the larger flock of natural born Jews. So, with these facts in mind, we go to Luke Chapter 10. Shelley, you are going to shoot me, however, due to the importance of this, we are going to go over (good grief....!!!) the WHOLE Chapter. Here goes: But first....the context: Jesus has just given the Pharisees a rash: he has blasted them and they are not happy. The two verses before the 12th Chapter are these: 53 So when he went out from there the scribes and the Pharisees started in to press upon him terribly and to ply him with questions about further things, 54 lying in wait for him, to catch something out of his mouth. In other words, these guys are out for blood and Chapter 12 begins:Luke 12:1-59 1 In the meantime, when the crowd had gathered together in so many thousands that they were stepping upon one another, he started out by saying first to his disciples: “Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy This scene is pure chaos. There are "thousands" of people "stepping upon one another." The folks opposed to Jesus are in his face. It is a not calm, not supportive of Jesus. This scene shows the internal strength and force of personality Jesus was/is and a good example of how we should face similar circumstances. Dialoges take place in this melee between Jesus and certain people. Luke tells us to whom and about what subject Jesus is discussing. Notice this discusssion is between Jesus and "his disciples." . 2 But there is nothing carefully concealed that will not be revealed, and secret that will not become known. 3 Wherefore what things YOU say in the darkness will be heard in the light, and what YOU whisper in private rooms will be preached from the housetops. 4 Moreover, I say to YOU , my friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more. 5 But I will indicate to YOU whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Ge·hen´na. Yes, I tell YOU , fear this One. 6 Five sparrows sell for two coins of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them goes forgotten before God. 7 But even the hairs of YOUR heads are all numbered. Have no fear; YOU are worth more than many sparrows. 8 “I say, then, to YOU , Everyone that confesses union with me before men, the Son of man will also confess union with him before the angels of God. 9 But he that disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone that says a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but he that blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven it. 11 But when they bring YOU in before public assemblies and government officials and authorities, do not become anxious about how or what YOU will speak in defense or what YOU will say; 12 for the holy spirit will teach YOU in that very hour the things YOU ought to say.” All of this is to his diciples. Now, he talks to "a certain one of the crowd" in the verses below: 13 Then a certain one of the crowd said to him: “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” 14 He said to him: “Man, who appointed me judge or apportioner over YOU persons?” 15 Then he said to them: “Keep YOUR eyes open and guard against every sort of covetousness, because even when a person has an abundance his life does not result from the things he possesses.” 16 With that he spoke an illustration to them, saying: “The land of a certain rich man produced well. 17 Consequently he began reasoning within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, now that I have nowhere to gather my crops?’ 18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my storehouses and build bigger ones, and there I will gather all my grain and all my good things; 19 and I will say to my soul: “Soul, you have many good things laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, enjoy yourself.”’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Unreasonable one, this night they are demanding your soul from you. Who, then, is to have the things you stored up?’ 21 So it goes with the man that lays up treasure for himself but is not rich toward God.” The conversation with this person complete, Jesus, again turns to "his disciples." Remember, the majority of the crowd are not his disciples. It is pure turmoil. The Pharisees are hammering him with questions: challanging him at every turn. In the midst of all this emotional uproar, Jesus turns to "his disciples" and assures them of something: He had just talked to the person in the crowd about being " 21 So it goes with the man that lays up treasure for himself but is not rich toward God.”: 22 Then he said to his disciples: “On this account I say to YOU , Quit being anxious about YOUR souls as to what YOU will eat or about YOUR bodies as to what YOU will wear. 23 For the soul is worth more than food and the body than clothing. 24 Mark well that the ravens neither sow seed nor reap, and they have neither barn nor storehouse, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more worth are YOU than birds? 25 Who of YOU by being anxious can add a cubit to his life span? 26 If, therefore, YOU cannot do the least thing, why be anxious about the remaining things? 27 Mark well how the lilies grow; they neither toil nor spin; but I tell YOU , Not even Sol´o·mon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. 28 If, now, God thus clothes the vegetation in the field that today exists and tomorrow is cast into an oven, how much rather will he clothe YOU , YOU with little faith! 29 So quit seeking what YOU might eat and what YOU might drink, and quit being in anxious suspense; 30 for all these are the things the nations of the world are eagerly pursuing, but YOUR Father knows YOU need these things. 31 Nevertheless, seek continually his kingdom, and these things will be added to YOU . 32 “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom. 33 Sell the things belonging to YOU and give gifts of mercy. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, a never-failing treasure in the heavens, where a thief does not get near nor moth consumes. 34 For where YOUR treasure is, there YOUR hearts will be also. 35 “Let YOUR loins be girded and YOUR lamps be burning, 36 and YOU yourselves be like men waiting for their master when he returns from the marriage, so that at his arriving and knocking they may at once open to him. 37 Happy are those slaves whom t master on arriving finds watching! Truly I say to YOU , He will gird himself and make them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. 38 And if he arrives in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them thus, happy are they! 39 But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have kept watching and not have let his house be broken into. 40 Y OU also, keep ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think likely the Son of man is coming.” So, here it is, Shelley, in black and white (well....actually red and white...) right there on the page in front of us. The "little flock" are "his disciples" and he is giving them assurrance in the midst of this crowd, egged on by the religious leaders oppossing Christ, that they, this little flock He has gathered from amoung the larger flock of Israel , will be ok: they should "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom." And, there are certain instructions Jesus gives that are directly applicable to those disciples right there, right then, in that momment. There is NO indication Jesus is talking about a future group, a "composite class," or making a prophesy. He is very much in the "here and now" and is giving immediate attention to a specific group of people: His Jewish disciples in the midst of this crowd. Peter speaks next: 41 Then Peter said: “Lord, are you saying this illustration to us or also to all?” 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? 43 Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so! 44 I tell YOU truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and should start to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting [him] and in an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47 Then that slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him. 49 “I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lighted? 50 Indeed, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished! 51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU , but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.” Next, he speaks "to the crowds:" 54 Then he went on to say also to the crowds: “When YOU see a cloud rising in western parts, at once YOU say, ‘A storm is coming,’ and it turns out so. 55 And when YOU see that a south wind is blowing, YOU say, ‘There will be a heat wave,’ and it occurs. 56 Hypocrites, YOU know how to examine the outward appearance of earth and sky, but how is it YOU do not know how to examine this particular time? 57 Why do YOU not judge also for yourselves what is righteous? 58 For example, when you are going with your adversary at law to a ruler, get to work, while on the way, to rid yourself of the dispute with him, that he may never hale you before the judge, and the judge deliver you to the court officer, and the court officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, You will certainly not get out from there until you pay over the last small coin of very little value.” That's it. Pretty easy, huh? All we needed to do was get a sense of the setting and the background of Jesus conversations and read the words "little flock" within that context. That done, we can wrap it up fairly quickly. The "little flock" were the Jewish disciples of Christ. Now that we have that down, we can, also with ease, figure out who or what the "other sheep" were/are and how they fit in to the picture. Yours in this Journey, V </form>
