Sorry garybuss I see what you are saying, was extremely tired yesterday due to the weather radio going off every five minutes the night before and I didnt give the thread the due diligence it deserved.
But I see now.
Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?
by garybuss 67 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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garybuss
bennyk posts this:
garybuss wrote:
My question has been this: If the great crowd doesn't die, but lives through the great tribulation, and there are two groups of sheep, the little flock of sheep (spiritual Jews), and the other sheep (spiritual Gentiles), who are separated from the goats after the great tribulation, who are the Witnesses who die now but are not anointed (little flock)?
They can't be members of the great crowd who will not die, because they're dead. And they can't be the other sheep, because they aren't separated from the goats or judged until after the great tribulation. Who are they?bennyk writes:
The box above conflates the two parables. It is because these individuals have an earthly hope, but are not separated from the Goats that they are Other Sheep. According to currently published Watch Tower teachings, there are three groups of Sheep:
1) ?Little Flock? (Heavenly hope)
2) ?Other Sheep? [includes the ?Great Crowd?] (Earthly hope; final Judgment after the Millennium)
3) ?Sheep? [Matt. 25] (Earthly hope; final Judgment before/during Armageddon)
The three groups are by definition mutually exclusive. The Society?s current interpretation of the parable in Matthew actually excludes from discussion the ?Other Sheep?.garybuss wrote:
I'm still actually seeing a Society teaching of three groups of sheep in my mind due to the dual judging teaching. The first judging is done by the Society before the Great Tribulation and the second judging is done by Jesus after the Great Tribulation.
Think about this: If a person is disfellowshipped by the Society can they still be judged as a sheep by Jesus and life forever in paradise according to the Watch Tower teachings? I think not! That means there are two judgments. The sheep and goats are being separated right now by the Watch Tower Society.bennyk writes:
The Society claims it does no judging, nor even the separating work, although the 1997 QfR does claim that the Society?s preaching work provides the evidence to be used by Jesus to separate the Sheep from the Goats in their final Judgment.
My question is this: Who are the Sheep of Matthew chapter 25? -
garybuss
Narkissos, Good points! Thanks!
It seems like it would be bad business for the Society to be so confusing with a central doctrine like the clear description of their members. It's like they are saying: "We are absolutely sure we are right about having the truth about not really being sure who we are."
Wikipedia:
Frederick William Franz - (September 12, 1893 ? December 22, 1992) -
TD
I think it's interesting soley from the standpoint of an observer of JW doctrine how this two class system has evolved.
Originally, (And by "Originally", I mean the doctrine as it was introduced in 1935) the terms "Great Crowd" and "Other Sheep" were synonomous. The "Other Sheep" were declared to be an "Earthly Class" because the "Great Crowd" was an "Earthly Class."
Even today, the JW's have a quasi-scriptural argument using the motifs of Revelation for why they believe the "Great Crowd" is an earthly class, but they have no such argument for the "Other Sheep" beyond a lame, "It has long been understood......" This of course ignores the question of whether the reason why "It has long been understood" is still considered valid today.
There are other vestiges of the original reasoning as well. For example, the JW's believe that there was only a heavenly calling from the dawn of Christianity clear up until 1935. All Christians with an "Earthly hope" are thereby crowded into the "Time of the End." Again though, if the two groups are not synonomous, there is no longer any real reason for this teaching because there is no longer any necessity of placing those with an "Earthly hope" close enough to the "End" so that they could be also be considered "Prospective members" of the "Great Crowd."
The partial differentiation between the two groups today has been introduced by degrees over the years. First, it was allowed that the faithful living before Christ (What JW's sometimes call, "Pre Christian Witnesses") were also "Other Sheep" with an "Earthly Hope." Then, in the early 70's the "Great Tribulation was relocated to some future point in time. and finally, the "Generation" teaching, (Which was the justification offered for why 1935 was not a big mistake) was discarded entirely.
Why doesn't this damage or even wreck the whole doctrine? The impression that I get from talking to JW's (And even from some comments on this thread) is that it has been understood that the "Other Sheep" are an "Earthly Class" for so long, that no explanation is requred anymore. The fact that JW's still view Revelation 7 as the vision and model of Christian salvation doesn't seem to even be a minor annoyance and it takes a lengthy explanation as to why this might be a problem for their belief system.
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minimus
When these things are (clearly) blurred, I think it's done on purpose. The Watchtower makes things confusing so that later on they can say, "we've been saying that those of the annointed great crowd members will assist Christ in the heavens" for years.
Get it?
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garybuss
Very insightful post TD. Thanks! I've noticed too that the odd teachings of the Witnesses, like the fruit eating paradise earthly class in perfect replica bodies, and the claim that God owns and manages a United States book printing company are simply assumed correct and not even thought about.
Teachings to many Witnesses is a minor thing. Big things are what time do we go bowling Saturday, and which restaurant do we eat at Sunday?
minimus, I get it loud and clear:-) Thanks for posting. I enjoy your serious side. I appreciate your wit and intelligence. I'm glad you're here. -
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Sunnygal41
Jesus judges AFTER he returns, but now the Society says Jesus did not return (even invisibly), and he did a partial judging and only judged the little flock and then quit, but the little flock is still being added to today, so that implies that Jesus' judging is still in progress and there has not been a pause in that judging.
this made me really chuckle, Gary...........makes me think of that delicious quote: "oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive" the WTS has known for decades that their teachings don't add up, but, it's the proverbial pink elephant in the same tired, living room.......
terri
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bennyk
Originally, (And by "Originally", I mean the doctrine as it was introduced in 1935) the terms "Great Crowd" and "Other Sheep" were synonomous. The "Other Sheep" were declared to be an "Earthly Class" because the "Great Crowd" was an "Earthly Class."
Actually, it's rather the other way around. Russell believed that the Great Crowd was a heavenly class (though less faithful than the “Bride Class” [144 000]). Rutherford taught the same until 1935, when he identified the Great Crowd as being made up of Other Sheep. The Other Sheep had long been believed an earthly class.
Russell’s teaching was that the Other Sheep [John 10] and Sheep [Matt.25] both were an (i.e. ONE) earthly class to be separated in the Millennium. (See the article “Other Sheep Not of This Fold” [WT Reprints page 4784]). In the 15. October 1923 Watch Tower, Rutherford retained the belief that these Other-Sheep/Sheep were an earthly class, but changed the time of the separation of the Sheep and Goats. The Other Sheep [John 10] and Sheep [Matt. 25] parted ways (became two groups) after the change of the WTS' interpretation of the parable of the Separation of the Sheep and Goats. Regarding the Sheep and Goats, the 1997 QfR concludes with the words: "As The Watchtower showed, Jesus will soon sit on his throne and pronounce sentence, people being judicially separated in a final sense to life or to cutting-off." In contrast, the Society still teaches that the Other Sheep are not declared righteous for eternal life in a final sense until after the Second Test following the Millennium. (Rev. 20)
My question remains: Who are these Sheep of Matthew chapter 25? The Society can no longer identify them in a manner consistent with their current teachings.
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bluebell
Must admit I never noticed myself but I read somewhere, maybe here or maybe CoC that the GB don't often refer to John alot in the teaching due to the context of stuff like that you pointed out:
Should JWs read the continuation of John 10 that would be quite problematic, though:
My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand.