Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep? (page 5)

garybuss

neverendingjourney, Yes I do appreciate sarcastic humor. It's my favorite kind. Thanks for your posts! :-)

Rakkasan, you wrote: Have you considerd this
This sheep pen = Jews
Other sheep= Gentiles

Yes, It's the clear meaning of the texts but we are looking at the Jehovah's Witness theory that every parable and every text verse has two meanings. I am trying to take a rational look at a irrational group. That's the only reason I might seem confused:-)

bennyk, Thanks, I think I'm starting to follow you. I'll reread your posts later and think about what it all means.

Narkissos, Thanks for the post. I enjoyed your personal comments.

I'm still actually seeing a Society teaching of three groups of sheep in my mind due to the dual judging teaching. The first judging is done by the Society before the Great Tribulation and the second judging is done by Jesus after the Great Tribulation.

Think about this: If a person is disfellowshipped by the Society can they still be judged as a sheep by Jesus and life forever in paradise according to the Watch Tower teachings? I think not! That means there are two judgments. The sheep and goats are being separated right now by the Watch Tower Society.

free2beme

Then there are the sheared sheep left hanging out in the cold. Like us!

Honesty

After thinking real hard about this, I had to have been a real nutter to have once believed that the Watchtower Society had the TRUTH.

moggy lover

I don't know what's up with you guys. I mean geeez its so bloody simple even Ted Jaracz can understand it:

There's those sheep that exist now but won't then, then there's those who don't now but will then and there's those who aren't now but will be and those who were but maybe, then there's those who wannabe but who won't, and those who don't wannabe who won't either, then there's those who can be who can't, and those who, because they can't be won't, there's those who tried to be but won't be and then there's those who, having gone round in circles for so long don't know whether they are or will be or won't, then again you can't forget the ones who coulda been but because they crapped on Teddy's shoes won't be, there's those who climbed up his arse so far they've disappeared, of course you can't forget those sheep who are more goatish than sheepish, [couldn't help that one, forgive me Lord] then you've got those sheep who are really pigs, those who are cows, [waddaya mean who's them? haven't you heard of the antitypical mad cows?, I mean there's antitypical other things, why not them Hmmmn? Teddy hasn't had the vision yet, but he will, he will] f'instance you've got the nethinim sheep, the sons of the servants of Solomon sheep, the Jonadab sheep, the Gibeonite sheep, The Jael sheep, Job's children sheep, the Queen of Sheba sheep, and evidently on firmer theological grounds since they were identified by Franz himself, the Judaized Persian sheep.[Wt 1950, pg 191] I mean you've got lots of sheep. There's this lot here and that lot there. Then there's me.

No, not you, bugger orf.

Cheers

blondie

Actually, up until 1951, many JWs hoped for 3 classes of sheep. Many still do, because although the official written policy is that all people who aren't baptized JWs in good standing or minor children without responsibility, they can't accept that their non-JW family and good friends are going to die. Every JW I met had their own pet theory on this. Amazing how the WTS spends so much ink and wind judging the future of others and then say that only God and Jesus have the right to do so? Oh, does that mean the WTS/FDS/GB think they are equal to Jesus and God?

*** w51 5/1 pp. 287-288 Questions From Readers ***

Some maintain that at Armageddon there will be three classes: sheep that survive, goats that are eternally destroyed, and uninformed or unresponsible ones who will die but will be resurrected, and that in this latter class will be young children. Is this correct?-L. P., Montana.We know of no Scriptural backing for such a view. The parable of the sheep and goats shows the nations being separated into two classes, not three. The goats headed for everlasting cutting-off are not just those who persecuted Christ’s brothers. The parable upbraids the goats, not for what they did, but for what they failed to do, for their indifference toward and lack of interest in his brothers.—Matt. 25:45.

Many who never come in touch with the anointed remnant nevertheless subscribe to what others do in persecuting or fail to do in the way of giving help. The Bible shows a communal responsibility, where a community upholds rulers who persecute Jehovah’s people. Did not the Egyptians suffer the plagues because of Pharaoh’s hardheartedness? Did not the Amalekites suffer for generations afterward because of Amalek’s opposition to Israel in the wilderness? Were not the entire households, including little children, of Korah and Dathan and Abiram swallowed up in destruction because of the rebellion of the household heads? Did not Achan by his greed bring death not only to himself but to his sons and daughters as well? Even King David brought death upon his people by his own transgressions. (Ex. 5:1, 2; 9:13-16; 17:8, 14, 16; 20:5, 6; Num. 16:23-33; Josh. 7:24, 25; 2 Sam. 24:10-17) Now, who will be rash and commit the folly of posing as more just than God by saying He was wrong in such procedures?—Deut. 32:4.

In harmony with the parable of the sheep and goats, Ezekiel chapter 9 shows but two classes, those marked for preservation and the unmarked ones appointed to destruction. And in this latter class note that little children were included, to be slain without pity. This is a prophetic picture of the destruction at Armageddon. At a time of judgment Jesus said: "If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." That means not only clergy and laity but also parent and child. If a parent chooses to sin against the holy spirit despite the eternal interests of his offspring, that then becomes the responsibility of the parent. In that same time of judgment Paul and Barnabas said to the Jews: "It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. Since you are thrusting it away from you and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations." (Acts 13:46, NW) Those Jews became responsible for the fate of their offspring, not Paul and Barnabas.

Parents devoted to their children will in the interests of their offspring shun wrong ways, taking instead right paths so as to put their children in the way of preservation. "Jehovah knows those who belong to him," and that also means little children at Armageddon whose parents belong to Jehovah and who try to rear them according to God’s Word. (Deut. 6:6, 7; Eph. 6:4; 2 Tim. 2:19, NW) To Christian parents of young children the promise is: "Otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy."—1 Cor. 7:14, NW.

Narkissos

Good summary moggy lover.

WT doctrine has always been a mess, but what strikes me in the '95 article is the poverty of argument and shortsightedness as to the logical implications. FW Franz's writing was a mess too, but a way more sophisticated one, with an obvious (obsessive?) concern for inner consistency and anticipating objections. (There may still be some of his deathbed ideas in the 1995 article, but I doubt he wrote it; when did he die exactly?)

I feel bennyk is right as to the "other sheep" label being deliberately applied to current JWs regardless of their ultimate fate (as meaning nothing more than "non-anointed," since in JW doctrine the "anointed" too can "fall"). Should JWs read the continuation of John 10 that would be quite problematic, though:

My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand.

garybuss

lol @ ------> moggy lover

Blondie, You are right! I know a LOT of Witnesses who have told me there might be sheep out there, mixed in with the goats, who might survive Armageddon. Great point!

So the goats are murdered not for what they did, but for what they didn't do, namely peddle Watch Tower literature door to door. What about a mature person who becomes a Witness after refusing the Witness' offers her whole life? Is she held responsible for not going door to door with error like the now replaced "Truth" book? Or for not teaching the changed generation of 1914?

It looks to me that the most a person who did not join the Witnesses in the 30's or the 50's or the 70's would be guilty of, would be (guilty of) not teaching error. Hardly a death sentence offence in my mind.

garybuss

I just ran this idea by a Witness and I asked the Witness if only Jehovah's Witnesses (sheep) will be saved at Armageddon and the Witness said "We don't know. That's up to Jehovah. There might be people (sheep) who aren't Witnesses who might be saved."

So I said, "So you believe there were people who were not in Noah's Ark who survived Noah's flood? Because the Society says the Jehovah's Witnesses are the Ark today and to be saved at Armageddon you have to be in the "organization".

dial tone . . . .

Satanus

There are a few kinds of sheep: the domestic breeds, and then the pronghorns. I wonder if jesus will also bring in the pronghorns? What about the llamas? S

hawkaw

dial tone . . . .

In a weird way I found that funny

Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?

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