Wayne,
Frank
WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....
by A-Team 212 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Wayne L
Frank - Good to see that all you have left is cartoons.
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poppers
Have you any response to my last post?
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fjtoth
Wayne,
Frank - I like JW reasoning and logic. . . .
I think their teachings about transfusions and the 144,000 are ridiculous, but it's their doctrine.Do I detect a contradiction between those two statements?
You are not fighting it from the bible because it can't be done, so you resort to fabrication and inflammatory headers and silly cartoons.
And I suppose YOU have been using the Bible! Interesting. "Fabrication" is only in your mind. I haven't fabricated anything, and you know it, though you haven't got the humility or good sense to acknowledge it. And why do you lack the needed humility? Because you are also dishonest, especially with yourself. You won't acknowledge what is true because it will damage your self-centred ego.
The 5 children featured in Awake May 22/94 were scrutinized by judges and panels and found to be capable of making their own decision, and that they were NOT COERCED in any way. And you, in your infinite wisdom, call it "murder".
This shows how little you know what goes on inside their organization. Every JW is most certainly COERCED into refusing blood transfusions. Each and every one of them knows they will be disfellowshiped if they accept a transfusion, and that would mean the end of every friendship they have anywhere in the world. They would rather die than lose the favour of the organization they worship as their god.
If you had proof, the New York Times would probably pay a king's ransom for it.
Give me an example of where the NY Times has ever criticized JWs. You are speaking about something you know nothing about.
I had a lengthy running debate with MacGregor years ago about their gross errors and outright lies, to no avail. I'm tired.
Not all xJWs are in the MacGregor camp. If you were unable to defeat the MacGregor's, you might as well give up. There are thousands of xJWs who don't depend on them or anybody else to tell them about JWs. You haven't got a chance in a million of combatting the barrage of information we could be hurling at you -- information you refuse to accept but which is nonetheless 100% true!
And this, Wayne, is another example of your lying about being a JW. If you are not one of them, why are you spending "years" defending them, even to the extent that the average JW would not go?
You were on this mission a long time and now that I've cornered you and called you on your exaggerations, will you withdraw them, or would that take the pleasure out of life?
Name one "exaggeration." Just because you are incapable of accepting facts doesn't mean those facts are "exaggerations."I say this - that if there were a breaking story about Witnesses anywhere in the world, the Toronto Star would have it. It's funny that you know things that reporters don't.
Just because you missed seeing the stories doesn't mean they never appeared.Frank
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Wayne L
Frank - I used New York Times as one example, off the top of my head. Reporters love anything JW related. And anything major would usually be carried on for a while. It would be hard to miss. Not impossible, but hard. It's the type of news I look for. I relish anti- Witness news. But it must be relative and important.
You have directed me to links that have inflammatory headers, and exaggerations.
And I made no contradiction. I have stated numerous times that I don't agree with all their stuff. That stuff usually can't be proven one way or the other so I ignore it. That they have dispelled many falsities is to be commended. I thank them for teaching me the "hostile witness" approach. It is the best way, in my view to research religion, until a better way comes along. When I find where a major scholar has once again validated them , it makes my day. It is hard, if not impossible, to disprove their stand on BTs and the 144,000. I've seen 20+ books on Rev. all different. I won't touch that one.
I like the recent comment I came upon while reading George Howard that there are about 20,000 errors in KJ. Hope that fellow who was quoting from it the other day isn't offended.
Why do I do this? I'm retired and I love it. It's one of my hobbies. I get to play the lawyer I never was. Without pay!
Poppers - I will reread your post and get back. Wayne
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fjtoth
46 distortions of truth and fact put forward in this thread by "Wayne L"
(With commentary in red)
- "It is easy for me to prove the accuracy of JWs major beliefs by using only Protestant and Catholic writings (especially Catholic)." (So, you can prove 1914, no blood transfusions, two classes and destinies for Christians, Christ is the mediator for only the JW "anointed," not all Christians need to be born again, etc.)
- The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible is so close to the NWT. (The Catholics actually copied the NWT word-for-word in many instances, didn't they?)
- The New Jerusalem Bible says about John 1:1 that it "should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.'" Sounds like what JWs have been saying, isn't it? (It certainly doesn't sound like "a god," which is what JWs say, does it?)
- The Watchtower Society does not restrict its members from surfing the net. (Then why have most individual JWs taken down their private websites in obedience to Kingdom Ministry instructions?)
- "I'm still learning and waiting for you to teach me something I don't already know." (Then why do you fight so hard when those of us better informed than you try to enlighten you about what goes on among JWs?)
- Catholic and Protestant translators quietly alter their bibles suspiciously in the JWs direction. (What is so suspicious about advancing with the latest discoveries in Biblical languages, etc.)
- There are scholars who believe that Jesus read the divine name in its original form. (Can you name even one of such "scholars"?)
- It is believed by some scholars that some NT manuscripts contained the divine name in its original form. (Again, what "scholars"?)
- Catholic and other scholars admit that JWs are correct. (When have they done that, and on what topic?)
- Scholars have retranslated a word here and a phrase there, nearly always in the Witnesses' favour. ("Nearly always"? Can you give even one example?)
- There are scholars who believe the original Matthew contained the divine name and others who believe that OT writings with the name existed in Christ's day and later. (Who are these so-called "scholars," and do other scholars agree with their guesswork?)
- The worst bible ever produced is the King James Version. (Come now! Have you personally compared it with the original Geneva Bible? Or the Jansenist Bible? Or the Cahen Bible? Or are you simply parroting what others have said?)
- "My lifelong friendship with one of Jehovah's Witnesses qualifies me to correct some misconceptions about them, should the need arise." (Your qualifications are insignifican compared to those of persons who spent many years in the religion.)
- "Anything I say on religion is 'fact', not emotion." (Tut, tut!)
- There seems to be some evidence that some early versions had Jehovah at Romans 10:13. (Is the "evidence" accepted by Bible language scholars and reputable translators? Or are you accepting the guesswork of the WT Society?)
- "I do have a few Protestant bibles that render John 1:1 the JW way." (And those few say "a god"?)
- Since it takes conviction to become a JW, one is not coerced or lied to in any way, shape or form. (You betray such naivety and gullibility!!!)
- JWs go through the Bible once every 3 years or so and are exposed to multiple bible versions and vast quantities of literature of all types. (And on what planet did you find JWs of this sort?)
- No religious literature is banned among Jehovah's Witnesses. (Just let a JW get caught by the elders reading literature from another church, and see what happens!)
- Christmas is 100% pagan and otherwise unscriptural. (Most Christmas traditions did not originate in pagandom. Many are of recent origin in western lands. You probably also believe the JW teaching that birthday celebrations are pagan, though wedding anniversaries are not. My, my!)
- "Every JW I ever met is the person we should all be." (Yes, we should all be persons who can hardly wait for the time when all people who are not JWs will be painfully destroyed in a horrendous fiery destruction, even if they had spent their lives as doctors, nurses, firemen, etc. in the cause of helping others.)
- "I am an honest person." (And very modest too. Right?)
- Jehovah's Witnesses are not wrong to forbid the celebration of Christmas. (They most certainly are very wrong to divide families by disfellowshiping those who don't agree with them on this topic.)
- And about predicting, JWs did make a sort of apology a few years ago and said they won't do it again. ("Sort of apology"? No, they did not. Instead, they blamed members among them who they claimed did their own speculating.)
- JW members cannot be blamed for what some of their leaders do. (Just as the Nazis should not be blamed for obeying Hitler. Right?)
- The divine name does not appear in the NT because of an unscripural and superstitious removal by the !st century copyists. (You could not possibly be mistaken, could you? The name does not appear in any of the most ancient manuscripts, and there is no evidence that "copyists" betrayed the church by means of a wholesale conspiracy against the name. And your accusation of "unscriptural and superstitious" ignores a more reasonable explanation. You don't think it's possible that Bible writers and copyists had motives that were good? That they did not want to take God's name in vain? That they realized they were sinners unworthy of even saying the name? Of course you don't, because you've swallowed the JW theory 100%.)
- The confusion arising from the generic God/Lord in the NT can be blamed entirely on the superstitious, ungodly first/second century Jews. (Sure. If that's what JWs told you, it MUST be true!)
- There is evidence that the Tetragrammaton extended into the 2nd/3rd century and was removed after that. (And who provided you with that evidence? And why are you keeping it so secret from Bible scholars who need to be enlightened by your great discovery?)
- There are non-Witness writers who claim that at least Matthew used the Tetragrammaton in a Hebrew version and possibly all the others did in their Greek. (Oh, there must be thousands of such non-Witness "writers," eh?)
- It is not my policy to use Witness literature as proof. (Neither to use any other literature as proof. Right?)
- Jesus and disciples read the Tetragrammaton in temple writings which existed in their day, apart from the Septuagint. (Ah, yes, another secret discovery you've made!)
- Claiming that thousands have died due to Watchtower policy is garbage. (Yes, I suppose so, despite what the facts clearly show.)
- Serious accusations against the WT Society would not hold up in court. (That's right. The court that recently required the Society to pay out millions of dollars to its victims was going beyond the law, wasn't it?)
- JWs don't murder! (How true! We mustn't believe what we read in the newspapers, mustn't we?)
- If thousands of JWs lost their lives in Malawi, it would have been proclaimed everywhere, in all major newspapers. ... Major papers have reporters in the most obscure places. (Then why did the Society complain that the news media was ignoring what was happening?)
- No one can prove God or the Bible. (No one? Probably even Jesus would fail at it, wouldn't he?)
- My only purpose on this site is to make hatemongers, with no other purpose, go away. (So, truth tellers and those who expose wicked deeds are hatemongers, are they? It's not likely they'll be going away very soon, despite your most desperate efforts.)
- "I'm trying my best to 'persuade' posters here to go after the real rapists, murderers, and liars in our midst." (And that's why you're glad we are going after the real ones among JWs, right?)
- Jehovah's Witnesses do not commit murder or rape. These people were acting on their own and not following Watchtower doctrine because JW doctrines do not teach murder or rape. (Even though they were baptized members in good standing at the time they committed their crimes?)
- Jehovah's Witnesses who as consenting adults refuse blood transfusions do so willingly and are not murdered by the Watchtower Society. (Oh, no, of course not! It's not murder when the Society threatens to disfellowship them if they accept blood, is it? If they die due to refusing blood out of fear of being disfellowshiped, it's not the Society's fault is it? The Society gives them completely free choice, doesn't it? Those "consenting" adults would not be given an ultimatum like take blood and you will get thrown out of the organization, now would they?)
- This site besmirches all Witnesses everywhere because of a few bad ones. (This site besmirches evil practices, of which the WT Society is guilty of many.)
- The 5 children featured in Awake of May 22/94 were NOT COERCED in any way. (Nope. They and/or their parents would have been disfellowshiped, but that in no way is coercion, is it?)
- If there were a breaking story about Witnesses anywhere in the world, the Toronto Star would have it. (Sure, sure. The Star, in fact, is more concerned about JWs than any other religion, isn't it?)
- Reporters love anything JW related. (Right! They eat, sleep and dream about JWs day and night, don't they?)
- "I relish anti-Witness news." (That's why you relish this website, right?)
- It is hard, if not impossible, to disprove the JW stand on blood transfusions and the 144,000. (Speak for yourself. Methinks you need to know your Bible a whole lot better than you claim you do!)
Frank
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keyser soze
Don't bother, Frank. He's never going to get it. We've lived through it, he hasn't. He's going to continue to debate with people who have years of experience inside the organization at all levels and try to tell us that what we've experienced isn't real. If he's not a JW, than he's the classic apologist. He picks the most miniscule points to defend them on (Christmas) and turns a blind eye to serious shortcomings. He has no sympathy for the people who have suffered indignities at the hand of the WTBTS because he's never been one of them. He has a couple of friends who are "good and decent people", so that makes the rest of us liars.
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fjtoth
keyser sore,
I doubt it can be said any better or clearer than you stated it. Thanks.
Frank
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Wayne L
The only thing wrong with it is that the only thing in common on this site is a dislike and even hatred of Jehovah's Witnesses."
Since you haven't been a JW you haven't had to deal with the things former dubs have had to deal with. Your viewpoint hasn't been affected in the way theirs has. I think they should be given latitute to deal with their feelings in an environment in which they feel safe, and this site provides that. When someone comes here and tries to deny them that there will inevitably be a reaction. There are many here who have indeed been raped and abused and have been abandoned by the confines of Watchtower doctrine to their own fate - a heartless situation which only adds to feelings of betrayal. Besides that, there are many ex dubs here who don't share your assessment of how the JWs are viewed. Many of these have a compassion which is forged in the fire of their own struggle to exit and only wish to extricate their loved ones from what they feel is an unhealthy and unnatural environment that goes against the grain of human decency inherent within the individual, but snuffed out by an imposed doctrine. I share that compassion despite never having been a JW and try to insert ideas to consider which will take one beyond the conditioning they are entrenched in. I would ask that you consider the possibility that there are people here who are telling the truth of their experiences with JW life. I would ask that you consider the possibility that the WT isn't the entity it demands its followers to believe and that its doctrines impinge on the pursuit of happiness and growth that is natural for an individual to seek.
From Wayne: "Popper - You meditated for 30 years and quit. Why? I did TM (the non-religious kind) for 1 month in the 70s and quit. It has been shown to relieve stress and it's been said that if a certain % did it all would be peace and harmony in the world."
I practiced TM for 9 years before becoming disillusioned with the movement, but I continued with other forms of meditation for many years following TM, finding that other techniques were just as effective as TM. It wasn't until later that could accept the fact that it too exerted pressure to live one's life in a certain way, a pressure that I overlooked at the time because I saw what I wanted to see for most of the years I was involved. Maharishi has taken a noble undertaking, meditation, and distorted it to his own financial benefit. He was deceptive in presenting it to the public so that many people were unaware of the Hindu underpinnings of his technique. He/the movement continues to fleece his gullible followers into taking more and more "advanced courses to speed up one's evolution", courses which are sometimes destructive to those who take them, and courses which are totally unnecessary except to bring in more money. He deceived his followers in what "enlightenment" is so that they are brainwashed into believing that it is something that will only happen in some future when enough people are meditating. He/the movement has skewed scientific studies which purport that TM is more effective than other types of meditation that cost virtually nothing, as compared to $2500 to learn TM. He has made claims about a certain percentage of people who meditate in an area will reduce crime, yet Fairfield, Iowa (home to Maharishi International University) has seen no such decline ever despite having a much higher percentage of that community meditating than his claim requires. He has shown himself to be manipulative and abusive to female followers; hardly the image he wishes to project to the public, but covered up to protect his reputation. In short, he isn't what he claims to be and he has bamboozled people for many many years - hallmarks of a cult like organization.
Why did I quit meditating? Because I came to the point where it wasn't necessary anymore. I woke up to what I am, and my daily life is experienced in a state of natural meditation. By that I mean: when you realize your true essence a natural byproduct is to be in a thought free state (most of the time). When thought is needed it is there; when not needed, thought/mind abates - nothing has to be done anymore for this to happen, it is my natural state. The egoic entity, the personal sense that convinces one that he is separate from everyone else, has been seen through as a fiction, so it no longer dominates how life is experienced and viewed. Without that identification with the ego, life is experienced in peace and stillness despite outer circumstances because what is viewed is no longer seen to be separate from what I am. Life is lived in the present moment now, without reference to the past or future unless for practical purposes. It is this natural state that is the "commonality" I referenced in my previous post. By helping others to see this within themselves, fear and hate of others cannot take root because they are solely the byproducts of the separate sense of self. It is that separate sense of self which gets in debates with others, it is that separate sense of self that demands things be its way, it is that separate sense of self that does everything it can to protect its own idea of "self". And it is that separate sense of self that I wish others here to likewise discover to be a fiction which covers one's essential nature of peace and wholeness.
>>>>>>>>Poppers - What is a "dub"? I'm a newcomer.If you live in Canada (forgot your profile) you know that in the last 10 years or so, that there has been a flurry of "rapists" and "murderers" released from prison for one reason or another. In some cases it was found that the witness lied, or mistaken identity or sloppy police work. The 2 most famous cases are Stephen Truscott (of book fame) and Donald Marshall (an Indian). These 2, plus many more, spent, 20+ years in jail for cases built on very shaky ground. Can you conceive of that happening to you? If JWs (note that I don't use the term Watchtower because of its bad connotations) have a strict burden of proof requirement, they have a reason. They can't spit on a sidewalk without it being noted.
It is an extremely serious thing to toss those words around in these sites as though talking about the weather. There are other cases in Canada where people's lives were ruined by accusations and no charges ever laid, or they were exonerated. While no names are mentioned here, the entire movement is tainted.
Any Witness who was ever molested or otherwise harmed should use the law to the fullest.
You referred to an unhealthy and unnatural enviroment. What would that be? And did you (not being one of them) ever personally witness this, apart from in sites like this? Do you know JWs, and what are they like?
About TM, it sounds like you got involved in the religious type with its gobbleygook and flying Yogis. "Magic Carpet Ride"? I only did the non-religious, and quit because I have problems following through with things. Considering how stressed out I am, that was a bad mistake. I have to take 3 blood pressure pills a day! Wasn't the famous picture proven a hoax?
I don't quite get what you mean by "commonality" and such. It might be your natural state by I don't see much of it on this site. Wayne