Poppers - Sorry for including your post with mine. I meant to delete it.
WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....
by A-Team 212 Replies latest watchtower bible
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fjtoth
Wayne,
It is an extremely serious thing to toss those words around in these sites as though talking about the weather.
We're not talking about anything like the weather. We're talking about people's lives -- MILLIONS of them -- that have been damaged by this evil cult.
You will continue to defend it because you know very little about it. You demonstrate how true it is when people say "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
I think that if a pedophile or murderer were loose in your neighborhood, you would protect him just as you try to protect the Watchtower Society. The sooner the world knows how evil that organization is, and the extent to which it has introduced so much misery into people's lives, the better!While no names are mentioned here, the entire movement is tainted.
AS WELL IT SHOULD BE!!! THE MOVEMENT HAS TAINTED ITSELF!
Frank.
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poppers
Wayne, a "dub" is shorthand for JW - you can hear "dub" when you say the letter "w". The "unhealthy and unnatural environment" is the climate of fear instilled in JWs in regard to "worldly" people and other religions, in regard to questioning WT policy within their own ranks, in regard to shunning family and fellow members who have been deemed unworthy of association, in regard to risking disfellowshipping for a myriad of manmade restrictions, in regard to pursuing education without restriction, in regard to what is acceptable behaviour between man and wife behind closed doors, in regard to what can be watched on TV/movies, in regard to how free time is spent, in regard to policies which isolate their children from school activities and on and on it goes. Surely you know of these things.
You didn't address the questions I raised: mainly, why aren't you a JW if you like what they teach and stand for? And what recourse would you commit to if you found yourself publicly questioning things? And what is their response to your defense of them on their behalf? Reread my post for the other things.
My personal witness of things that go on in the JWs is limited. However, I have personally talked to ex-witnesses in my community and have been informed of simililar situations to what I read on this site. Also, my best friend from high school became an elder, converting from Catholicism, and I have heard him mention similar stories as well. He is out now, but he is still convinced it's "the truth" - he's still under the influence of their indoctrination. I do have one neighbor that are witnesses and in the many years that they've been here they have never extended so much as an acknowledgment or hello as I walk by unless I say it first. This standoffish behavior doesn't surprise me now that I've been informed of the reason for it - I am considered "worldly" and therefore am not good association. They know that I am not interested in joining their ranks after numerous tracts left by them haven't prompted me to inquire more about them so they won't waste their time with me.
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As for TM, I got the same thing you and everyone else who became initiated got, it's just that the "religious type" you refer to wasn't something that was brought to the attention of hit and run meditators such as yourself. It is something that comes out as you got deeper into the programs that they continually brought out and subtly manipulated you to take. By the time you become aware of it you've been sold a bill of goods that soft peddles the religious aspect. You've been conditioned to accept things because you have been hooked into believing that you've got to take all those advanced courses, and to go against the system and question things was to risk having those programs withheld. It was all very very subtle but you tend to push that into the background when you're wrapped up in it - in other words, you've succumbed to denial. Only later after walking away was I able to take an objective view of it. I was shocked to realize that I'd been duped and had spend so much time in what can be argued to be a cult.
The "flying" meditator picture is another deception. All "flying" is is hopping across the floor a few inches off the ground. They snapped the picture when those guys were all in the air at the same time. There is no one anywhere that actually "levitates" - they've been sold another bill of goods, being informed by Maharishi that this the first step in actually levitating. In the more than 30 years that this particular practice has been going on NO ONE has some much as paused for a millisecond midair - it's all leg power. The way it's taught it easily becomes a classic case of mass delusion - one person begins to "hop" (because that's what their taught to expect) and the next thing you know you're doing it too just to go along - it's a total self deception.
As for your stress level and high blood pressure, find Herbert Benson's book The Relaxation Response. In it he teaches a very simple yet effective nonreligious mental technique/meditation which may be very useful in helping you to lower your blood pressure. Here is the url from Amazon.com :
http://www.amazon.com/Relaxation-Response-Herbert-Benson/dp/0380006766
Good luck with it.
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The "commonality" I referred to is the underlying natural state of awareness everyone has that exists prior to the arising of thought. It is the "ground level" of what you are. The egoic sense, the sense of the "me" as opposed to everything else, is what hides the conscious recognition of it. That sense of "me" is a mental creation only - it doesn't exist apart from thought. There are people here who are waking up to this state, which is amazing given the circumstances that they are coming from. Just one success here is reason for celebration in my book. -
Wayne L
Poppers - The reason I'm not a JW is simple. I don't have a religious bone in my body. I think religion is bunk. I knew the pic of the flying swamis (or whatever they're called) was a hoax long before it was exposed.
I only mentioned it to know what you thought. Psychic phenomena is bunk also, until someone comes forward. There is a foundation somewhere that I read about years ago with a million dollar standing offer to anyone who can prove it! I wish I could. Any one who can will be set for life, that's for sure.
What else was in your post ? Oh, yeah. What would I do if I had issues with doctrines? Maybe I have been misled, but I assumed that anyone ready for babtism knew what he/she was getting into. I know of no one personally who had any thoughts of leaving after making such a commitment. And there is the Q as to how many are on this site, and others like it. I have a habit of knowing what I'm getting into. Didn't they? Your experience with them seemed all negatives. Mine is totally opposite.
And how does one become a JW nurse or doctor or lawyer or scientist or teacher if education is frowned upon? And how can the Internet be taboo and yet WT has a website? But I digress. Wayne
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poppers
From Wayne: "Maybe I have been misled,"
Well, that's a posssibility, isn't it?
From Wayne: "but I assumed that anyone ready for babtism knew what he/she was getting into."
Yes, you've made an assumption. You don't actually know, do you? Those who convert aren't aware of consequences until after baptism, and after the love bombing has ended. They are told to examine their current religion, but after baptism as a JW they aren't allowed such examination with outside sources that aren't controlled by the organization. Doesn't that tell you something about control?
From Wayne: "I know of no one personally who had any thoughts of leaving after making such a commitment."
To get a complete picture why not ask your friends for references of disfellowshipped ones and talk to them.
From Wayne: "And there is the Q as to how many are on this site, and others like it. I have a habit of knowing what I'm getting into. Didn't they?"
They either didn't have a choice, having been brought up in it, or they weren't given the complete story prior to conversion. So no, they didn't know what they were getting into.
From Wayne: "Your experience with them seemed all negatives. Mine is totally opposite."
You are seeing only one side. Do some investigation to see it all.
Wayne: "And how does one become a JW nurse or doctor or lawyer or scientist or teacher if education is frowned upon?"
Some are already in professions prior to baptism. To become one after baptism is rare, and those who go after higher education are viewed with suspicion. Check out this from youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ctU6ZjasUpA
From Wayne: "And how can the Internet be taboo and yet WT has a website?"
It tells you something that there are very few pro websites for JWs. They don't want people on the net because there is too much out there that refutes their claims. If internet use were encouraged more openly and without restriction a lot of people will be more apt to openly confront the WT. They'll lose control and their ranks will rapidly shrink. Instead they are convinced that the governing board has a direct line to god and they are his mouthpiece - in effect, they put themselves in god's position, so to go against the organization is to go against god. Read the following on baptism.
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From freeminds - http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/baptism.htm
In line with these sentiments, in 1985 the Society changed the baptismal vows such that new Jehovah's Witnesses committed themselves not only to God, but to the Watchtower Society. This is evident from the baptismal vows published over the years. The baptismal questions from the Aug. 1, 1966 Watchtower (p. 465) were:
(1) Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?
(2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?
The May 15, 1970 (p. 309) and May 1, 1973 (p. 280) issues printed slightly revised vows. The newest baptismal questions were set forth in the June 1, 1985 (p. 30) Watchtower:
(1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?
Note how different the second vow is from the earlier versions. The Society has managed to get newer members to, in effect, join a worldly club from which their membership can be terminated at any time by the Society (disfellowshipping) while at the same time convincing these newcomers that they have only dedicated themselves to their Creator. Can any actions be more devious?
When a person becomes a JW, he or she is not told about the legal ramifications of joining the club. If the person decides to quit and says, "Hey, I dedicated myself to God and not to an organization," the Society may write a letter saying something along these lines:
`From the date of your baptism and your joining the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, you professed the Christian faith, agreed to adhere to the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses and agreed to submit to the rules and procedures of the ecclesiastical government of Jehovah's Witnesses.'
Note the legalistic phrase "ecclesiastical government." The WT Society never applies this to itself in any literature for public consumption. Instead it uses euphemistic phrases like "theocracy" to lull the sensibilities of the rank and file.
The change in baptismal vows protects the Society from legal challenges but is obviously completely un-Christian. The insidious thing is that, when challenged, the Society uses the legal ploy that it is a voluntary association, like a club, but then claims that a person has repudiated the entire Christian faith if he leaves the club.
Technically, the Society gives a person two choices when leaving the club: disassociation or disfellowshipping. In practice a third choice is to leave the person alone. This is common and occurs when the elders do not feel threatened by the person's leaving, or when the person is able to threaten the elders personally with legal action.
Most longtime Witnesses are surprised to learn about the changes in the baptismal vows, in particular what these commit a person to and the legal obligations he takes on. Again we find dishonesty suffused through the Watchtower organization like water in a melon.
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Do you think the WT wants this to become publicly known by prospective converts? That's a distinct possibility if internet use is promoted. Do you think young people who are encouraged to get baptised are aware of the ramifications if he follows through and then later begins to question things? Instead of focusing on what you agree with as far biblical interpretation goes, widen the scope of your examination to include the WT itself. -
poppers
From Wayne: "The reason I'm not a JW is simple. I don't have a religious bone in my body. I think religion is bunk."
So then you admit that the JW religion is bunk as well. How does that sit with your friends? Have you even told them their religion is bunk? -
poppers
Just a reminder, you still haven't answered my question about how your friends view your defense of them.
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Wayne L
POPPERS WROTE - yne: "Maybe I have been misled,"
Well, that's a posssibility, isn't it?
From Wayne: "but I assumed that anyone ready for babtism knew what he/she was getting into."
Yes, you've made an assumption. You don't actually know, do you? Those who convert aren't aware of consequences until after baptism, and after the love bombing has ended. They are told to examine their current religion, but after baptism as a JW they aren't allowed such examination with outside sources that aren't controlled by the organization. Doesn't that tell you something about control?
From Wayne: "I know of no one personally who had any thoughts of leaving after making such a commitment."
To get a complete picture why not ask your friends for references of disfellowshipped ones and talk to them.
From Wayne: "And there is the Q as to how many are on this site, and others like it. I have a habit of knowing what I'm getting into. Didn't they?"
They either didn't have a choice, having been brought up in it, or they weren't given the complete story prior to conversion. So no, they didn't know what they were getting into.
From Wayne: "Your experience with them seemed all negatives. Mine is totally opposite."
You are seeing only one side. Do some investigation to see it all. Wayne: "And how does one become a JW nurse or doctor or lawyer or scientist or teacher if education is frowned upon?"
Some are already in professions prior to baptism. To become one after baptism is rare, and those who go after higher education are viewed with suspicion. Check out this from youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ctU6ZjasUpA
From Wayne: "And how can the Internet be taboo and yet WT has a website?"
It tells you something that there are very few pro websites for JWs. They don't want people on the net because there is too much out there that refutes their claims. If internet use were encouraged more openly and without restriction a lot of people will be more apt to openly confront the WT. They'll lose control and their ranks will rapidly shrink. Instead they are convinced that the governing board has a direct line to god and they are his mouthpiece - in effect, they put themselves in god's position, so to go against the organization is to go against god. Read the following on baptism.
-------------
From freeminds - http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/baptism.htm
In line with these sentiments, in 1985 the Society changed the baptismal vows such that new Jehovah's Witnesses committed themselves not only to God, but to the Watchtower Society. This is evident from the baptismal vows published over the years. The baptismal questions from the Aug. 1, 1966 Watchtower (p. 465) were:
(1) Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?
(2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?
The May 15, 1970 (p. 309) and May 1, 1973 (p. 280) issues printed slightly revised vows. The newest baptismal questions were set forth in the June 1, 1985 (p. 30) Watchtower:
(1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?
Note how different the second vow is from the earlier versions. The Society has managed to get newer members to, in effect, join a worldly club from which their membership can be terminated at any time by the Society (disfellowshipping) while at the same time convincing these newcomers that they have only dedicated themselves to their Creator. Can any actions be more devious?
When a person becomes a JW, he or she is not told about the legal ramifications of joining the club. If the person decides to quit and says, "Hey, I dedicated myself to God and not to an organization," the Society may write a letter saying something along these lines:
`From the date of your baptism and your joining the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, you professed the Christian faith, agreed to adhere to the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses and agreed to submit to the rules and procedures of the ecclesiastical government of Jehovah's Witnesses.'
Note the legalistic phrase "ecclesiastical government." The WT Society never applies this to itself in any literature for public consumption. Instead it uses euphemistic phrases like "theocracy" to lull the sensibilities of the rank and file.
The change in baptismal vows protects the Society from legal challenges but is obviously completely un-Christian. The insidious thing is that, when challenged, the Society uses the legal ploy that it is a voluntary association, like a club, but then claims that a person has repudiated the entire Christian faith if he leaves the club.
Technically, the Society gives a person two choices when leaving the club: disassociation or disfellowshipping. In practice a third choice is to leave the person alone. This is common and occurs when the elders do not feel threatened by the person's leaving, or when the person is able to threaten the elders personally with legal action.
Most longtime Witnesses are surprised to learn about the changes in the baptismal vows, in particular what these commit a person to and the legal obligations he takes on. Again we find dishonesty suffused through the Watchtower organization like water in a melon.
------------------------
Do you think the WT wants this to become publicly known by prospective converts? That's a distinct possibility if internet use is promoted. Do you think young people who are encouraged to get baptised are aware of the ramifications if he follows through and then later begins to question things? Instead of focusing on what you agree with as far biblical interpretation goes, widen the scope of your examination to include the WT itself.IP: PkRq2pvtK0f6UMqu poppers Re: WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....
Post 1737 of 1747
since 27-Mar-04From Wayne: "The reason I'm not a JW is simple. I don't have a religious bone in my body. I think religion is bunk."
So then you admit that the JW religion is bunk as well. How does that sit with your friends? Have you even told them their religion is bunk?IP: PkRq2pvtK0f6UMqu poppers Re: WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....
Post 1739 of 1747
since 27-Mar-04Just a reminder, you still haven't answered my question about how your friends view your defense of WAYNE WROTE - Poppers - I am going to check out those sites you gave and check out WT website for info on a number of issues including the new babtismal requirement. So far the official site only warns of porn on the net. I will look further as to a general restriction on the net.
I would never tell my friend what I really believe. He still has hope for me that will never be realized.
The WT itself does not know of my personal defense of them. Things picked up through the grapevine over the years, and things read, tell me that they are non-confrontational and I know they would not want an admitted agnostic? speaking for them or, as you've seen, making a mess of things as in this thread. And you must know that they won't even send literature to anyone who orders it through mail. They deliver it by local members. Their goal is to get me to attend meetings. I admire them for this as that is what they do, and should do. It has been difficult for me to pull all this off.
Members I know want me to go to meetings but I have put them off so far.
As to your opening line "Maybe I have been misled", join the club. I have fallen for many foolish things, like pyramid schemes and such. And I started to believe in astrology at one point until I discovered that because of something called "precession of the equinoxes, nobody today is the sign they think they are, They're one or two signs behind, or ahead, I can't remember which. I found this out after spending $100s on books. Wayne
PS Sorry again but I don't know how to delete your post without deleting mine.
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Wayne L
Poppers - Taking a second look I didn't answer you Q. My friends and other JWs I talk to would not approve of this. They don't really know because I've never mentioned it to them.