Persuasion: Did we forget what we learned as JWs?

by larc 45 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Seeker

  HS,

  Your observations are accurate: there are several of us who try hard not to resort to insults. In my case, it is a learned skill. :) I used to get much more caught up in the give-and-take that goes on in online forums, during my early H2O days. I eventually tired of it, and determined not to do it any more. With a few notable exceptions since, I have kept to this and I believe it is a better approach.

  As for my story, I posted it long ago on H2O and see no need to go into it again. Those who are interested can read my much-too-long explanation from H2O, as captured by Osarsif on his excellent site:

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

  Just scroll down looking for the "Seeker" section and you will see a series of posts under the heading "Why I will leave." Feel free to read my story there.
• 

  hillary_step

  Thank you Seeker - I will read this entry today - HS
• 

  Satanus

  larc

  You make a good point. On the other hand, we arn't jws anymore. Most here aren't christian . So, we don't need to speak like jws or christians. We aren't evangelists. We have no responsibilities to convert anyone. Each can have his/her own standards. Are you trying to keep us to jw standards, just under a new name or no name? Come on. Jws have an obligation to meet jw standards. Christians, christian standards. What standards are there for agnostics or aetheists? They choose their own. Their natures determine their standards.

  On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with civility, or high quality writing, or logical coherent arguement;).

  S
• 

  ashitaka

  very true, larc. good advice.
• 

  hillary_step

  SaintSatan,

  I am not sure that I understand your reasoning on this issue.

  Larc as I see it, is calling for more responsible and civil standard of behavoir on this Board, a sentiment that I personally agree with. You noted:

  Are you trying to keep us to jw standards, just under a new name or no name? Come on. Jws have an obligation to meet jw standards. Christians, christian standards. What standards are there for agnostics or aetheists? They choose their own. Their natures determine their standards.

  Are you implying that Christians and JW's have a higher 'standards' of behavoir than those who have left their religion behind them?

  Kind regards - HS
• 

  JT

  I agree 110%

  too many former jw have no idea of how thier In your face manner shuts down jw-

  sorta like knocking on a door and saying your faith lies to you each time you go to church as your opening presentation- not too good

  i too feel that the art of Persuasion was honed and polished as jw--why not use it for good for a change

  james
• 

  Bridgette

  I agree with Saint Satan (I think). That is, if what he's saying is: while we agree with the use of civility and cohesive argument, not all of us here have an agenda to recruit current JW's to the ExJW community. Some are here to heal, and some who are in this process, their words are angry and full of stuffed down emotion, which comes out after years as very vitriolic. They are healing. It's not pretty.
  I personally have no agenda here. I like to listen and talk to others who've shared a similar life experience. I guess the closest thing to an agenda that I have is to force and keep the WTBTS honest with it's adherants, the governments under which they "work", and the public they seek to recruit. I could care less if someone wants to remain or become a witness or not, but if they talk to me, they're going to be fully informed about what they're in or getting themselves into.
  I could definitely get on board with more civility, but don't care to join a recruiting campaign of JW's. Although, it's karmically appealing, I'll let the natural laws of Karma balance out all the ill effects that the WTBTS has wrought.
  Pax,
  B.
• 

  xjw_b12

  A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. Or perhaps a more familar translation to most of you... An answer when mild turns away rage...!
• 

  Tina

  well,
  The fact is dishonest and disruptive individuals(read trolls) do come aboard on boards like these.
  I personally have 0 tolerance for such shenanigans.
  I am not here to 'persuade' anyone from their belief.I will present info and fact,they do with it what they will.
  There is not just one right way,or one right approach. Calling for such is conformist.
  There are diverse values and communication styles here. What offends one,doesn't bother another in the least. People will learn to use some thinking skills and develop personal discernment by sifting and drawing to the ones that appeal to them. Skills that were NOT allowed by the WTS. THEY inculcated and demanded conformity of thought,style and communication. They censored individuality.
  I happen to appreciate all styles,whether I agree with them or not.
  I've often learned form these.
  yes,there is in your face,and there are softer/gentler styles. Just as there are personalities who respond to both. SInce I have no agenda to pull people out of the WTS,no mission,I think it's best to leave everyone to their own style.Advocating the use of persuasive WTS techniques is becoming just as low as they are.
  People are here for many reasons,some mentioned in the above posts. We should keep this mind.
  I will and have wholeheartedly helped any who ask for assistance,info, and support.I keep in mind this is THEIR personal journey.To stay or leave is a conclusion they need to settle in their own mind and in their own time.I do not see any benefit from persuading,which to me is coercion . I find the calling to remeber our 'persuasive techniques' highly unethical. But that's just me. Jw's only leave when they have worked thru issues and doubts themselves. I have rarely seen where 'pulling and persuasion' is very effective. It becomes effective when they make the data 'their own'.
  Also larc,when you condemn/make a judgement on a long-time poster make sure that 'newbie,trolls' whatever, are judged by the SAME criteria.Especially one who brags about being kicked off other boards for crappy behavior,thus,who knows better.

  si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
• 

  Hmmm

  While I try to avoid the more nasty discussions, I also have a rather sarcastic nature, and I'll flex those muscles on occasion.

  I do, however, find myself sometimes employing some JW tactics... I LIE! I was just IMing a guy the other day, asking about NGO and other topics. He asked if I was a former JW. I said that I was a baptized JW who was not DFd or DAd, but had some serious questions about some teachings. I guess my statements would have held up in court, but I committed half a dozen lies of omission.

  Much of the time it depends on the listener. I remember when I was a die-hard JW. I wouldn't have listened to anybody, no matter how compelling the argument. Anybody who tried to present the facts to me in a mild, non-confrontational manner would be ignored. Let's face it, to be non-confrontational, you usually have to make allowances for their crack-brained beliefs. How many times did we stand at the doors and say "uh huh" to someone spouting their personal feelings on religion. As soon as we got off the porch, we laughed at their decidedly un-scriptural thoughts, but we couldn't tell them that at the door, or they never would have allowed us back for that statistics-padding return visit!

  When my walls started crumbling, I then sought out the information, but tried to avoid the more aggressive, "hateful" sites. But I have to admit that it was probably the hard-hitting, take-no-prisoners sites and people that put the subconscious cracks in my walls, and allowed the smooth talkers into my head.

  That said, I don't think it helps curious JWs much to be mercilessly attacked and lambasted for asking honest questions. But I also don't think there's a whole lot of that happening here. The JWs who get attacked most vociferously are the ones who are not earnestly seeking answers, but are counting time battling apostates. Heck, we're much harder on each other than on JWs (I even got bashed a few days ago for (horror of horrors) saying I thought Fredhall was a maroon).

  Hmmm