Persuasion: Did we forget what we learned as JWs?

by larc 45 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Satanus

  Thanks bridgette, i meant something like that. I had reach my posting limit and had to wait.

  HS

  That is my impression. It could be wrong. But inside, i think they are just as bad or worse.

  I think what i was trying to convey is that jws and christians feel guilty if they don't present a nice front. 'I must behave like a christian should', or 'i must act kind and loving like the wt has taught me'. Their emphasis is on how they look to other people. While atheists and agnostics can just be themselves. I'm not advocating total diregard for other people's feelings. When one suggests the casting aside of jw or christian standards, many people instantly react in fear thinking total lawessness is going to break out. Human nature is better than that. Atheists also have ethics and love for people. From where does this derive? From the early nurturing of their mothers, and then later, the fathers also. You can observe this same phenomanon in some animals. My cat for instance, is not a jw or christian. I don't know what her concept of god is. Maybe she feels the oneness. Anyway, she has a good nature due to genetics and early nuturing . If you can, you should try to observe a mother cat raising her kittens. It's very interesting.

  I try to be civil, but sometimes i'm not. I'm here for the therapy. I'm trying to get better. To do that, i believe i need to get things out, not suppress them like the wt taught. I don't want to make too much of a mess in the process. In time i hope i will feel a love for everyone. Right now i don't and i'm not going to pretend that i do.

  I hope i have answered your question?

  S
• 

  siegswife

  (((I think what i was trying to convey is that jws and christians feel guilty if they don't present a nice front. 'I must behave like a christian should', or 'i must act kind and loving like the wt has taught me'. Their emphasis is on how they look to other people. While atheists and agnostics can just be themselves.)))

  I have to disagree with this assertion. When I act like an ass or talk shit to someone, I usually feel bad because of FEELING angry toward that person. It has nothing to do with how they perceive me except that I've hurt their feelings and they might not be able to forgive me. I try to make amends when I feel like I'm wrong. There are times when I talk angrily to someone and DON'T feel bad about it. I usually try to work it out somehow though. I'm not afraid to make the first step to reconcilliation even in a situation where I don't think I was entirely wrong. I'm not worried about the APPEARANCE that I project, but the RELATIONSHIP involved.
• 

  Satanus

  Siegswife

  Interesting. If i remember right, you are a christian, but a fairly liberal one. Would you agree? To what type of church do you belong?

  S
• 

  larc

  Thank you for the comments, all,

  I wanted to highlight some good points made by Cyberguy and Path on another thread. They were responding to a written letter with many UN facts that got rejected by those who recieved it. Cyberguy indicated that is was probably to in your face and confrontive for the recipients. He suggested the following format would work better: the expression of doubt, the citation of information and then let the other person read the evidence and draw their own conclusion. Path suggested that one letter is probably not enough, and the letter itself should be more subte, with many correspondences written over time. There are no guarantees, but I think the odds of success are higher with this approach.

  Some may not be interested in recruiting people out of the religion, but many are. I think is was Amazing who got his family out by using a slow, careful process. His story is found at FreeMinds. I do not engage in recruiting myself, and the only person I would like to see out is my own sister, but I know her mind is closed, so I don't even discuss it. My wife and I have pondered her situation in many discussions. We have concluded that she will talk to us about issues, if she ever gets a different mindset.

  My concern here regarding persuasion has to do with fence sitters who lurk here. I think that, not only what we say, but how we say it could represent a major turning point in their lives.

  Even with perceived trolls, I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes people are misdiagnosed and are not trolls at all. I have seen that happen here. With angry and/or disruptive trolls, I continue to think it is better to attack their ideas, not their persona. Usually, one of three things happen. One, they don't get an emotional reaction and they leave. Two, they look foolish by the combination of their ignorance and their name calling and they also leave. Three, they settle down and listen to good ideas. Several people have come to boards like this as angry, insulting apologists and changed. As I recall, Simon said somewhere said that he went through that transition. We are all blessed that he did.
• 

  Stash Daytripper

  Ask me about the being an exJW or any of the facts I've learned.
  I can reply with a honest and "nice" reply.

  Ask me about how those issues will change WTS. I can give you a "nice" reply.

  Tell me I'm possesed by demons.. you'll get a big fat FLAME from me everytime.

  Ask peeps if they are morons... You'll get a big FLAME from me everytime.

  Above all.. if you just post some really dumb shit.. yes I'm gonna have to FLAME you. It's unavoidable and a forum MUST!

  All depends on the post...

  Peace and happy flaming=)
  Stash
• 

  larc

  Stash,

  I would rathe use surgery than flames. It causes less collateral damage.
• 

  Pathofthorns

  I agree with both arguments, that of SS/Bridgette and Larc.

  I think we do a fine job of welcoming active JWs who come here in an honest, searching manner. Many of these have been lurking for a while before posting, so they know what to expect and many know what our individual online personalities are already.

  I contend that those who are lurking here are searching for answers to what troubles them, and if they genuinely have undertaken that search, nothing can stop it. If they are offended and upset too easily, then perhaps the time is not right for them, as they will not make it if they cannot deal with these things.

  As much as this board helps searching JW by providing them information, it would seem to be primarily a social club for former Witnesses, where people of a common past and often common interest meet for fun.

  I personally see no reason why we should have to walk on eggshells to give a good impression. That whole idea of putting on appearances so as not to offend is a hypocrisy I wanted to leave behind.

  Instead, I think we should be ourselves, and yet at the same time continually be striving to elevate our behaviour. I think there is a proper way to treat and respond to people, better ways of handling disagreements and a higher level of speech and manners.

  Path
• 

  teejay

  larc,

  I've had the opinion for a long time that given your academic and work history you had keen insights into people and how/why we act and think as we do. There have been times here at JW.com when I wondered about your silence when I thought you were the perfect person to speak out. Thanks for this effort.

  later,
  tj

  "Let me tell you something my friend. Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane."

  -- Red (Morgan Freeman); The Shawshank Redemption
• 

  JAVA

  Hello larc,

  Just a note here to let you know I'm back from Key West, and I need to return your call. I also want to make a few comments on this thread.

  Like you, I don't enjoy on-line battles. It seems like it's a waste of my time, and I seldom see results other than hurt feelings and name calling. However (isn't there ALWAYS a "however"), some posters really ask for a cyber kick in the posterior. That's a judgement call on my part, but so is getting out of bed in the morning. I have a difficult time "turning the other cheek" when someone craps on me, and then declares I stink.

  That's bound to happen occasionally in any group, as seen here. Responding as if one is not pissed-off works in high-control groups because they want to appear righteous and "give a good witness." In the end, that's really not honest--it's a front.

  Yet, that's not a reason to be unkind to others. I believe there is a difference between being honest in what is said compared to treating others unkindly. Some people get that, and some don't.

  Some like it hot and enjoy doing battle, for various reasons. It doesn't take much to provoke them into a battle of words with the usual results. These battles typically take center stage while other threads fall into cyber holes because--battles require energy and demand attention. Just look at the USA "War on Terrorism." Maybe that's why some go where others fear to tread; who knows?

  Anyway, these are my rambling thoughts after returning from the Keys. Guess that's what happens with too much sun...
• 

  waiting

  howdy larc,

  .As JWs we learned a lot about persuasion and how to get people to accept our ideas. We had role plays on over coming objections. We were taught how to anticipate typical questions and respond to them. We were taught that we should answer in a mild manner when people were angry with us, as it would "heap coals of fire on their foreheads." We learned to go slowly and deal with one simple message at a time. We were taught to spend months with one person in study in order convince them of our truth. -larc

  It's interesting that some of the responders to your questions were offended by the thought that we had learned things from the WTBTS that we could still put to use. Or that persuasion is in the same thought arena as mind control. That's like saying all communication is on the same propaganda level, whether "good morning" or "Kill all whites/blacks/muslims etc."

  You have a PhD in psychology (or something very similar) and a university professor for many years. How did you teach, debate, argue, persuade, change, share facts, communicate, with your students?I'm sure you gave many, many lectures at university level.

  Some nebies are ridiculed. Some are called trolls. Some are dealt filthy rebukes. How does all that fit with what we were once skilled at??? -larc

  There's a store across town from us.....doing the exact same type of work, same size, same price, same quality. At least a dozen of their accounts have come to us - the reason? They treat people like crap, and the people get tired of it. It's their words, their attitude, that's costing them. Their product information is good - their attitude sucks. And people leave as they don't want to be treated like that. We know this fact in the business world -- why is it so hard to comprehend in the web world?

  I'm not out to save the world - but I'm also not out to offend the world. It just doesn't pay off in the long run. I really do believe the words "treat others as we want to be treated." At least try.

  We learned communication skills from school, life, and the WTBTS. There's nothing wrong with using them, along with being civil ---- as Simon's asked us countless times to be.

  Like has been brought out, we all get mad, sarcastic, hateful. But when hurting/showing our ass becomes our style......it says a lot about us as people, imho.

  waiting