by journey-on 161 Replies latest jw friends
nvrgnbk
I'm not going to let you get by with that very cryptic answer (LOL)...
Oh but I can.
It's that which observes thought, rather than my thoughts themselves, that is ultimately real.
That is true essence
Simply stated, a thought is not a tangible thing to be experienced with the five senses, nor is the divine essence of our creator. Can you acknowledge the possibility at least?
Maybe it's my JW upbringing and my struggle to release the shackles of that indoctrination, but it is deeply ingrained in my psyche to believe in a creator. I no longer look at Him as "a big guy in the sky watching over all of us and keeping a record of our good deeds and bad deeds", however, I now perceive of this creator as pure Spirit (no "thing") who awakened to His own consciousness and self awareness as potential to create.
Hey, no worries, Journey-on. We have all, JW's and 90% of the world population, been indoctrinated or conditioned to believe in a Creator since childhood. I know the thoughts and stories fed to my mind since childhood by my ancestors. Now, I ask myself what evidence do I perceive or experience that this is real/true? For the moment, I am an atheist who is awaiting futher evidence that God exists. I would like for there to be a Creator, a Source, a greater meaning, an afterlife, heaven, Nirvanna, whatever. (Not too fond of hell) I don't want to be compost when I die anymore than the next person! I just see no evidence for any of those things. The universe also doesn't seem too concerned about what I would like. Of course, I acknowledge, just because I can't see evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means I have not experienced its existence. We do know that all molecules that make up everything in this earth are tied together by some sort of energy. We are all interconnected with this energy. What the Source of that energy is, if indeed there is one specific Source is still as yet unknown. The greatest minds on earth have not been able to figure it out yet, and since I'm not one of them, why should I worry about it? Still, I notice the human tendency to want to give said Source a capital letter, or a consciousness, or a personality, or a gender (HIS). Is this tendency ego? Delusion? Wishful thinking? Just be aware of it. Where does urge to explain and to give greater meaning than is evidenced, come from?
Cog
Can you acknowledge the possibility at least?
Yes.
BTW, I don't find my answer at all cryptic.
nvrgnbk
I wasn't criticizing you or insulting you when I described your answer as cryptic. I guess, in my journey, I've come to a place where I'm trying to understand some of the philosophies espoused by those who describe things as you did. Just when I think it's within my grasp, something causes me to halt and examine some other perspective, thus clouding the view. I meant no offense.
Cognizant Dissident
why should I worry about it?
Where does urge to explain and to give greater meaning than is evidenced, come from?
Perhaps, it's because that is the way we were created. Perhaps this is the program that drives us forward. We DO worry about it. We DO seek greater meaning than what is evidenced.
Albert Einstein said it this way:
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
No offense taken whatsoever.
I welcome your sincere queries.
Respectfully,
Nate
From journey-on: "Just when I think it's within my grasp, something causes me to halt and examine some other perspective, thus clouding the view."
That's just it, it cannot be grasped with the mind, so it's good to halt - now, stop completely instead of reverting to another tack from a different perspective. It's that different perspective that is the cause of missing it because that is just more mind to get lost in. Instead, notice what's here now always; notice what it is that allows all perspectives, all viewpoints, that allows everything to unfold just as it is. Isn't that just simple pristine awareness? Doesn't everything arise and dissolve again in consciousness? Isn't consciousness constant, never changing, unaffected by that which appears within it? Can you sense that you ARE this consciousness? This is nothing mysterious, nothing which you have to achieve to attain - this is yours already because IT'S WHAT YOU ARE. All there is is the seeing of this, the realizing it, and that can only happen now.
aligot, it laissez les bons temps rouler translated means let the good times roll. yes, you are very close to it's meaning. when we have fun here we say pass a good time or let the good times roll.
Cognizant Dissident, I really enjoyed your post. Thanks poppers, I always enjoy your posts also, especially the one on meditation. I didn't comment on it because you already put everything so eloquently, I didn't see any point in adding to it. Not that I have much to add, I am just a curious beginner on this journey to awareness myself. Cog
Perhaps, it's because that is the way we were created. Perhaps this is the program that drives us forward. We DO worry about it. We DO seek greater meaning than what is evidenced.
Albert Einstein said it this way:
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Yes, this does appear to be a "program" that drives many of us forward, but was it implanted by a Creator? Is it inherent in our biological nature? I was reading some pshychology articles about feral children last night. One girl was left to grow up in the dog kennel from babyhood. She exhibited all the characteristics of dogs. She could communicate with them by barking and howling, was more comfortable sleeping curled up like a dog and walking on all fours than upright. She never did learn human language and human characteristics very well so that she could fit in like a normal human. She was always much more comfortable just "being" in nature with the dogs and animals.
I use this example to illustrate just how much our "programming" is learned in very early childhood before we are even consciously aware of it. Yes we do worry, and we do seek greater meaning. I submit that we were taught to do this from early childhood when we were taught stories about God and given their meanings and this meaning making continues all throughout life. Originally, this could have developed as a survival mechanism as understanding the meaning of "signs" around us could often cause us to take action to avoid danger. However, being aware of this programming, means that we also have a choice to "deprogram" or "switch the program" or "just turn the program OFF". We can choose to worry or not to worry. We can choose to search for extra meaning or just accept what is.
This does not mean that we must lose our exploratory natures or that we cannot wonder or stand rapt in awe of what is all around us. Or, that we cannot feel emotion and passion for the beauty and ugliness of life all around us. Rather, we stand in awe and wonder of what we are experiencing, we feel and experience the emotions invoked, but we do not add a story surrounding it. We may even ask, why or how did this happen or how did we come to be, as all great scientists and philosophers have. However, in formulating those questions, we have taken ourselves out of the realm of direct experience and into the realm of hypothesis, stories, beliefs etc. That is where we often get into trouble because then we can become dogmatic that our hypothesis, story, or belief, is the correct one without having gathered the necessary evidence to come to such a conclusion. Ego becomes involved. Pre-programmed responses may come into play. We confuse "believing" with "knowing" through experience. I saw a bumper sticker once that summed it up nicely. It said, "don't believe everything you think".
What may have started out as an evolutionary biological survival mechanism (the ability to make meanings or attach meanings to experience) may actually end up being the downfall of our entire species. For instance, people are blowing themselves and others up all over the planet because of their attachment to their story, their belief, about the Creator and how we got here as being the "right" one. People are continuing to poison their own envirmonment and damage eco-systems in the mistaken belief that they can ignore "evidence/reality" of our interdependence with all living organisms and continue to believe the corporate programming that there is no limit to what they can have/achieve at the expense of the eco-system they live in.
Oh well, I will get off my soapbox now!
Cog
