Duality, hierarchy, or permanence: WHAT is the question?

by Narkissos 18 Replies latest jw friends

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    While meditating -- in a definitely non-transcendental way -- over the recent "meditation" threads, the following idea came to my mind:

    Meditation as often advocated here rightly questions the hierarchical dualities generated by mental activity, such as (or, perhaps, all boiling down to) "good vs. bad" -- hierarchical inasmuch as -- would you have guessed? -- one is supposed to be better, more valuable than the other; one is definitely to be pursued and the other shunned. Always.

    But in doing so it creates another hierarchical duality: the enlightened self, at one with the essence of Being or Awareness itself, vs. the separate self lost in its delusional dichotomies. Now the enlightened would never call the former "good" and the latter "bad". We have become sooo subtler. But there is still one better than the other. Always. The hierarchy subsists and the duality has been displaced -- not suppressed.

    Western thought for all its naïvetés tends to offer a more elaborate structure. Instead of 1 (or 0, cf. Buddhism and Taoism) vs. 2 it tends to develop (as early as Plato) into a 3-level hierarchical construction. To Hegel's dialectic of thesis, antithesis and synthesis in the Phenomenology of the (collective) Mind (which consciously builds on the Trinitarian structure) Kierkegaard responds with a structurally similar, although opposite in intent, topology of the individual subject. Three stages of life, aesthetical, ethical and religious. The middle stage problematises the original oneness of the aesthetical approach into moral duality ("good and bad"). The last, upper stage is supposed to restore the original oneness at a superior level -- that of eternity. Where, of course, both the aesthetical oneness and the moral duality are supposed to be finally reconciled. What we have is a permanent construct of dualities meant to surpass duality.

    So what shall we do with the dreaded 2? Try to repent from it "back" into 1, or 0, in the mystical way of Eastern wisdom? Or surpass it onto the broader fullness of 3 (or more), in the speculative way of Western metaphysics?

    I suggest that instead of questioning duality itself we rather question the hierarchy ascribed to it. Or more exactly its permanence, by acknowledging that it can be reversed, and reversed again and again. The borders which our thinking draws within the real can be crossed, over and over again, if they cannot be blotted out. As in the famous Chinese story of the peasant and the horse, what seemed "good" from one perspective can turn "bad" from another, and "good" again from still another. In Hesse's Siddhartha he prince learns something by crossing the river to become a beggar, and the prince beggar learns something else by crossing the river again to engage in the city's activities. That doesn't mean that "good" and "bad" are meaningless -- to the contrary, they are completely true in their relative own place and time. What we have to dispense with is the absolute -- the perspective from everywhere or nowhere, from always or never -- because it does not exist.

    The first will be the last is the very principle of walking. Duality in motion.

    That should be enough for a start...

  • Anti-Christ
    Anti-Christ

    Woooow man that was deep!!! I hope there is more to come. That's what I love about this board so many ideas.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Hi Narkissos.

    We need an afternoon, some wine, cheese, and bread to really get to the bottom of this.

    Don't you think that's enough for a start?

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    Narkissos i think you'll like this verse from biblegateway 1cor 6:13

    The Message (MSG)

    11-13 Dear, dear Corinthians, I can't tell you how much I long for you to enter this wide-open, spacious life. We didn't fence you in. The smallness you feel comes from within you. Your lives aren't small, but you're living them in a small way. I'm speaking as plainly as I can and with great affection. Open up your lives. Live openly and expansively!

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    But in doing so it creates another hierarchical duality: the enlightened self, at one with the essence of Being or Awareness itself, vs. the separate self lost in its delusional dichotomies. Now the enlightened would never call the former "good" and the latter "bad". We have become sooo subtler. But there is still one better than the other. Always. The hierarchy subsists and the duality has been displaced -- not suppressed.

    You have raised a very interesting point, Narkissos, and we did begin to touch on it at the end of that last thread. I recently read a book by Victor Chen, a close associate of the Dalai Lama, who interviewed him extensively about his meditation practice, awareness, enlightenment, etc. Apparently, it is VERY UNUSUAL for monks to talk about their own private mediation practice and claim "enlightenment" for themselves on any subject. The sense is that by putting such thoughts into language, automatically a duality IS created, betweened the "enlightened present self" and the "unenlightened former self". Even worse, it suggests a separation between the enlightened "me" and the unenlightened "them". This is very much considered to be a trap to those trying to follow a spiritual path, at least amoung the meditators and teachers I have been exposed to. We have constantly discussed this tendency of the mind to create these kinds of dualities in relation to everything, including spirituality. Perhaps this is why meditation and retreats are so much recommended to be a silent practice. To put into language automatically creates duality. The second we try to share our experience with "others" we are hampered by the constraints of comparitive language, thus creating separation. We work the best we can within those restraints, in order to encourage others, yet acknowledge the limitations of language and mind in this regard.

    Western thought for all its naïvetés tends to offer a more elaborate structure. Instead of 1 (or 0, cf. Buddhism and Taoism) vs. 2 it tends to develop (as early as Plato) into a 3-level hierarchical construction. To Hegel's dialectic of thesis, antithesis and synthesis in the Phenomenology of the (collective) Mind (which consciously builds on the Trinitarian structure) Kierkegaard responds with a structurally similar, although opposite in intent, topology of the individual subject. Three stages of life, aesthetical, ethical and religious. The middle stage problematises the original oneness of the aesthetical approach into moral duality ("good and bad"). The last, upper stage is supposed to restore the original oneness at a superior level -- that of eternity. Where, of course, both the aesthetical oneness and the moral duality are supposed to be finally reconciled. What we have is a permanent construct of dualities meant to surpass duality.

    I have not read Hegel or Keirkegaard so I will not comment on the content or accuracy of their "stages". I sense it just a continuation of the same problem, that the mind continually seeks "patterns" because that is what "mind" does. However, in doing so, as when formulating heirarchies that try to neatly package the prominent events in our life into the parameters of "stages", the very process of such defining, becomes limiting and inaccurate, creating dichomtomies (or in this case trichotimies) that cannot hope to capture the fullness of being human.

    So what shall we do with the dreaded 2? Try to repent from it "back" into 1, or 0, in the mystical way of Eastern wisdom? Or surpass it onto the broader fullness of 3 (or more), in the speculative way of Western metaphysics?

    God No! To "try" or even worse "to repent" of anything is to miss the point entirely. We just "allow" all to be as it is. Even that is not truly accurate, because what "is" is whether we allow it or not! Perhaps "acceptance" is a better choice of word.

    I suggest that instead of questioning duality itselfwe rather question the hierarchy ascribed to it. Or more exactly its permanence, by acknowledging that it can be reversed, and reversed again and again. The borders which our thinking draws within the real can be crossed, over and over again, if they cannot be blotted out. As in the famous Chinese story of the peasant and the horse, what seemed "good" from one perspective can turn "bad" from another, and "good" again from still another. In Hesse's Siddhartha he prince learns something by crossing the river to become a beggar, and the prince beggar learns something else by crossing the river again to engage in the city's activities. That doesn't mean that "good" and "bad" are meaningless -- to the contrary, they are completely true in their relative own place and time. What we have to dispense with is the absolute -- the perspective from everywhere or nowhere, from always or never -- because it does not exist.

    The first will be the last is the very principle of walking. Duality in motion.

    That should be enough for a start...

    That should be enough for the entire thread! Seriously, Narkissos you have summed it up perfectly in this section. I bow to your great skill in using the limits of language to explain that which is unexplainable, /\.

    Cog

  • poppers
    poppers

    From Narkissos: "one is supposed to be better, more valuable than the other; one is definitely to be pursued and the other shunned. Always."

    I wouldn't put it that way, that one is "better or more valuable" than the other, and duality is to be "shunned". I think that is a misunderstanding of what enlightenment is about. And to "pursue" enlightenment is a fool's journey because the one who pursues it will never find it. It is dis-covered when all pursuit ceases and the one who endeavors to find it is no longer present.

    "But in doing so it creates another hierarchical duality: the enlightened self, at one with the essence of Being or Awareness itself, vs. the separate self lost in its delusional dichotomies."

    Again, this reflects a misunderstanding of what enlightenment is. There IS no "enlightened self" because there is no "self" to begin with. Enlightenment is just a word to describe what remains after the separate identity is seen to be ficticious and identification with that ficticious entity has dissolved - there IS no self. If there were an "enlightened self" then I agree that a hierarchy is created, but there can be no such self. Find the "self" - is it real or only imagined? If it's imagined then it can't be enlightened. If it's real then where is it? If it's real how could it be "enlightened" since enlightenment is the "self-less" state? This is an important point - nobody becomes "enlightened", there are no enlightened individuals.

    There IS no self "at one with the essence of Being" - there is just Being, and that's what you are in reality. That which seems to be an individual that is separate from "other" (the "self") is a function of the mind only - the mind creates the "idea of me" that sets itself apart from everything else. Enlightenment is the seeing of this directly, and in the absence of the mentally created "me" the word "enlightenment" gets applied to denote that. In the seeing of this there comes a shift in how life is experienced. In the seeing of this there is no possibility of judging one thing, any thing, as better or more preferred than another.

    The primary reason why people who are on the brink of the conscious experience of enlightenment pull back is because they are about discover that their separate sense of self is a delusion; they don't want to face the reality of the illusory nature of the egoic sense. That scares the bejesus out of the ego, and the ego will do most anything from giving up its position of power. Fear drives the ego to remain in control and trapped in duality.

  • slimboyfat
  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    The first will be the last is the very principle of walking. Duality in motion.

    I suppose the queston is to do with the what we are looking at or considering and from what angle etc which decides our perspective in the now here or the there. In other words try remaining fluid and in motion mentally.

  • DeusMauzzim
    DeusMauzzim

    I AM meditating on it... let me just finish my Coptic ok?

    - Deus Mauzzim

    EDIT: First question: Please expand on the structure of three you see in Plato. If you mean ontological, I'm at a loss. If you mean psycho-political (the three parts of the soul and the three corresponding castes of the ideal state), how do you think Plato uses them regarding (meta)duality?

  • DeusMauzzim
    DeusMauzzim

    Ok very nice topic! Like you mentioned Hesse will be of use to us here. Some of my preliminary observations:

    - The problem you bring up seems to be one of meta-duality: we try to abolish duality in the concept of an enlightened self and by that very action we set up another duality between an enlightened and a fragmented self. Duality indeed has been displaced - to a higher level. What is constructed is a seemingly permanent binary system to abolish the duality inside the system (whether the system works in two or three steps, this is the result)

    - What you suggest is to deconstruct the so-called permanence of the system (exactly like Joseph Knecht in Das Glasperlenspiel: The "eternal" glass bead game is set up to abolish all duality of the mind in one perfect language, but this very system creates a duality between spiritual and eternal Castalia that guards the game and the material and historical outside world). This deconstruction results in, exactly, eternal différance (with Derridas word-play): a constant crossing of boundaries.

    Now my question: you speak of 'reverting again and again' (fitting, because deconstruction is supposed to reverse dichotomies) - are you not trapped in the same system then? Let's take you by your word and deconstruct 'to reverse' by etymology: < Lat. revertere 'turn back'. Now this movement is the opposite (or reverse :) of différance (constantly going further) - And there we have another dichotomy.

    Perhaps it's no coincidence that we talk about the reverse side of a two-sided coin. If you flip/reverse the coin (meta-duality-system) again and again it will still have two sides and two states. It's not that you're creating infinite possibilities.

    The answer Hesse seems to give is quite morbid. After 'reversing' his position by 'going back' to the world, Joseph Knecht drowns on his first official day. Only loss of self leads to loss of dichotomies.

    At the end of the walk, stern Hegel awaits us again.

    Awaiting your synthesis :)

    Regards,

    Deus Mauzzim

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit