Now, do you see why I don't believe in the Bible anymore? This is rediculous! I had the same question about a loving god that killed off animals that he created but let the humans live but then killed them off, too. Not logical, but neither is the Bible.
If death is the result of sin, why do animals die?
by Orgull 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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sinis
I thought that man was given the gift of life and that animals weren't given this same gift so the animals lived and died but humans were made to live forever as long as they did not eat of the fruit causing death.
Yet how do you know that what you are reading in the Bible is accurate? In the Sumer texts it is Enki who saves man by showing him how to make an ark. It was his brother Enlil (Jehovah) that created the flood to wipe man out. In later tradition it was altered to show that Jehovah was the savior. So if the warped sense of Jewish history favors the "asshole" god then how do you know they are accurate?
The "fruit" is nothing more that knowledge. Enki, Prometheus, Watchers (Book of Enoch), Satan, are depicted as liberating man, but were beat down by other, jealous "gods or god".
If the "gods" can create the world and man, don't you think that they could also manage the population of both man and animal, not through death but breeding? Who is to say that death was never present until Jehovah got a hardon and decided to wipe out what his brother had made? After all Jehovah is the "Jealous" god...
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Quandry
In the Sumer texts it is Enki who saves man by showing him how to make an ark. It was his brother Enlil (Jehovah) that created the flood to wipe man out.
And then of course is the question, "Who created them?" It makes my head hurt to think about it all. Do we believe Sumerian writings or the writings of Moses?
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sinis
In the Sumer texts it is Enki who saves man by showing him how to make an ark. It was his brother Enlil (Jehovah) that created the flood to wipe man out.
And then of course is the question, "Who created them?" It makes my head hurt to think about it all. Do we believe Sumerian writings or the writings of Moses?
Personally, I believe the Sumer texts over the Jewish texts. Abram lived in the city of Ur a Sumer provence/city and took with him different beliefs. Moses wrote through the oral tradition what had been passed down through the ages. Now if Abram took the "asshole" (Jehovah) god with him as his deity, you can see where things would change to Jehovahs favor. Moses simply wrote what had been passed down.
The Sumer texts and "legends/myths" are in STONE, not passed down but recorded far before Moses put thought to paper. The Sumer texts indicate the highest "God" was An (also referred to as Uranus in other cultures) who was the father of Enki and Enlil and who were in charge of man (Enlil created earth and the garden, while his brother Enki created man). In fact the texts show that Enki told his brother not to destroy man through a flood and that he would curb the lifespan of man, as well as introducing mortality and birthing issues (stillborns etc.). When this didn't work Enki helped Noah/Gilgamesh build an ark to save himself and the creatures of the world.
So, would you rather believe the originators of a belief set in stone or an oral tradition handed down for centuries before being put to ink, knowing that the cultures split and followed different deities?
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Sad emo
Spiritual death (ie permanent seperation fromGod) is the result of sin, not physical death.
Yet that is not what the bible says.What does the Bible say then? I'll use two key examples for my reasoning: In Genesis God told Adam the day he ate from the forbidden tree he would die - but he didn't did he? Not physically at least... Romans - "The wages of sin is death" - doesn't say physical death, in fact that would be crazy if Christians are to believe that their sins have been paid for by Christ's sacrifice - if it was referring to physical death, then we'd still have all those 1st century Christians walking around in their immortal bodies.
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Orgull
Damn Sad Emo, why did you have to bring reason and logic into my fanciful thread!
Now my faith in "the truth" is less than a shadow.
Good point though. I think maybe everything I was raised to believe as fact is all made up, as opposed to those things I was taught to believe were good ideas or principles, most of which still make sense to me today, despite my weakened, nearly non-existant faith.
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sinis
Romans 6:23 uses the Greek word Thanatos.
The Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon gives the following primary definition of the Greek word that is translated “death” (thanatos): “(1) the death of the body (1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which life on earth is ended” (“Thanatos:2505,” 1999).
In Genesis God told Adam the day he ate from the forbidden tree he would die - but he didn't did he? Not physically at least...
Neither does a car going a hundred miles an hour that runs out of gas - but it eventually stops (it was dead from that moment on but momentum kept it going). You can be physically alive through machines but dead once you are "unplugged". Now you have to assume that the "legend" of Adam living that long is factual. Like I said Moses wrote the oral tradition (which could have been embellished) ages later.
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Double Edge
In Genesis God told Adam the day he ate from the forbidden tree he would die - but he didn't did he? Not physically at least...
hmmm, perhaps he did.... depends on what you consider a day. In the scriptures God's "day" is counted as 1,000 earth years. Adam lived until he was a little over 900 years, so using that reasoning he did physically die in that "day". As far as why do animals die.... maybe it had something to do with that naughty SNAKE in the garden (bad snake, bad... bad... bad)
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nvrgnbk
Why are you still here with these damn apostates, Orgull?
Get back to the Kingdom Hall. At once!
They'll do your thinking for you. It's alot easier that way. LOL!
Glad to have you here and see you bask in the light of reality and mental clarity.
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erandir
1) Animals die.
2) Humans die.
3) Animals and humans are both living souls
4) Death is a result of sin
So again my question stands. Why do animals die?
Here's how a loyal dub would respond:
Orgull, when you word it that way, the truth doesn't make sense. Therefore, in order for it to make sense, we need to change your question by changing the wording. Actually, just drop the wording about the animals entirely. That part about living souls can be left out, too. Then we are left with:
1) Humans die.
2) Death is a result of sin
There...makes perfect sense now. I don't see a problem.
...What do you mean that doesn't answer your question? You haven't been on that internet have you?
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Seriously, though, anyone familiar with Occum's Razor? What's the simplest answer to this problem? From that point of view, what roles do a deity and a concept of sin have in that answer?