All current JWs: What is this? (page 4)

slimboyfat

If all the talk title did was cause someone to waste ONE afternoon of their life that they never recovered, the title of the talk was still false. Yes, or no, SBF?

It was certainly false.

Okay, SBF, given that the talk's title was false, would you say that circulars, handbills, and newspaper adverts inviting people to the talk were spreading a true hope or a false hope to the public?

What about the fewer than 6,000 people who were talking to others about the talk and sharing the book with them. Were these sharing a true hope or a false hope?

Were they doing so while acting as God's sole channel of communication on the earth, or not? Was the dramatic growth resulting from spreading this false message of God's doing or not? It isn't a logical trap, it is a logical inevitability. Since I can't figure any logical way around this path, I am stuck going straight through it.

For what it is worth, if any individual shared the false understanding that John would not die (which is what the Bible says the disciples were spreading) they were guilty of spreading a falsehood. (John 21:22-23) If you would like to consider them false prophets, I have no problem with that. But I do believe there is a difference of several degrees when someone spreads something untrue about an individual and it would only affect that specific individual, versus an organization telling its followers to spread a falsehood from which an entire belief system arises and to which falsehood thousands of people flock, having been deceived into believing on the basis of an untruth.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

slimboyfat

By your logic about the failure of the end to come in John's lifetime, the change of the "generation" teaching "only affected" those born before 1914. I would argue the disappointment over that change affected all JWs regardless of when they were born, especially the ones born much later. So your argument that the end not coming within John's lifetime was only a disappointment to John himself is ridiculous.

You originally asked how JWs might respond to the charge of "false prophecy" over 1925 and the millions now living campaign. I answered in those terms. I don't know why you are taking us off topic by now asking "was it false", and "did it create false hope". The only inevitability seems to be you will ask other questions you think will score points rather than stick to the original question you posed.

You then go on:

If you would like to consider them false prophets, I have no problem with that.

I have no religious motivation to call anyone anything. In a secular sense JWs have been "false prophets" in that they predicted things that did not happen. But those who are using the term in a biblical sense need to prove more than merely that, because "faithful" people in the Bible predicted false things too. The first century Chrsitians were even bigger "false prophets" taking that loose secular sense of the term. The passage in John is a particularly good example.

The verses in John seem to be clear on saying a few things:

1. Early Christians did spread the idea that John would not die.
2. It was not an individual doing the spreading, it "went out among the brothers".
3. Those among whom the idea spread are not denounced but are called "brothers".

Since you ask me what I believe, ("Was the dramatic growth resulting from spreading this false message of God's doing or not?") as if it were relevant to the discussion, and in doing so breaking with your own obsessive insistence that everyone stay "on topic", I will briefly say: I don't believe the Bible is particularly inspired, I can only refer to it in the terms in which those who so regard it use it. I could currently pass for an atheist though I try to stay open to suggestions. I am not convinced JWs have any special claim to the "truth", nor that they any more wrong or false than any other religious group since I have no framework for judging such "wrongness". What I can see is power play, and I object to them being labelled deviant, especially within a dubious and hypocritical religious framework. With that said maybe you can stop with the insulting viewpoint questions as if they are relevant to the question you initially posed.

Slim

fedorE

Very well put Mr slimboyfat.

SuzieQ

Good Marketing, preying on the feeble needs of insecure humans who want to feel important? SQ Calif. USA

johnny cip

I"M not going to get into it with slim boy fat or any one else here. i'll just present some facts that i'm not going to look up again for the 1000x. in a 1917 and a 1923 wt mag. it clearly said a christian had" more HOPE IN 1925 THAN NOAH HAD IN THE FLOOD" i'll ask a simple question who told NOAH ABOUT THE FLOOD? NOW HERE THE WT SAID THEY WERE MORE SURE THAN NOAH WAS ABOUT 1925 THAN NOAH WAS ABOUT THE FLOOD. guess who told NoaH about the flood and who told RUTHERFRAUD ABOUT 1925.? IF the story of noah is true and jehovah told him to build an ark. then it had to be none other that SATAN who told RUTHERFRAUD about 1925. THERE IS NO WIGGLE ROOM . I've researched this topic inside and out for 10 years. the wts today in 2007 is clearly LYING ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE TEACHING AT THE 1919 AND 1922 CONVENTIONS AT CEDAR POINT OHIO. I have questioned 1000's of jw's about " THE WORLD HAS ENDED/ MILLIONS NOW LIVING WILL NEVER DIE" and other teaching from the this era. and trust me if 2 jw's out of 1000's . ever even had a response more than advertise advertise advertise. that's a lot. the big question is what were they ADVERTISING IN 1922.? A false prophecy about the world ending in 1925. It's all straight out bullcrap YOU CAN READ ALL THE LIES RIGHT IN THIS YEARS WT study book REV. CLIMAX BOOK. thaNK GOD I RESEARCHED THESE LIES. YEARS AGO. JOHN

erandir

It's not a false prophecy because the "current light" says that the Watchtower isn't a "prophet". Even though they have claimed to be a prophet in the past. Sooooo. Hmmmmm. If they were claiming to be a prophet when Judge Drunkaford gave that whopper of a lie, then ...............

O.M., after listening to various commentaries/tangents that my previous book study overseer went into instead of just conducting the question/answer session of the book study, I have determined that the Society defines prophet in two ways and apply whichever definition best suits them at any given time. The first definition is someone who tells the future based on God telling them directly. The second definition is a spokesperson for God and does not necessarily imply any future-telling. So depending on your point of view, the Society is God's prophet or not. Reminds me of the Jedi's from Star Wars..."From a certain point of view."

AuldSoul

SBF: By your logic about the failure of the end to come in John's lifetime, the change of the "generation" teaching "only affected" those born before 1914. I would argue the disappointment over that change affected all JWs regardless of when they were born, especially the ones born much later. So your argument that the end not coming within John's lifetime was only a disappointment to John himself is ridiculous.

Please, SBF, enlighten me. I missed the part in the Bible where it said they thought the end would come in John's lifetime. Verses, if you please. And to caution you, I didn't say John was disappointed. Neither did John. He also didn't say anyone was disappointed, he just said the individuals who spread the word among the brothers didn't repeat what Jesus actually said. I try not to assume what the Bible meant by what it didn't say.

All I can find is that they spread the word that John would not die. Adding "before the end came" to their statements is your own contrivance, unless you have a Scripture stating that.

Was the dramatic growth resulting from spreading this false message of God's doing or not?

Permit me to establish relevance. The Proclaimers book section referenced claims that this tripling of adherents was in fulfillment of God "speeding it up in its own time." Since you admitted the message was false, putting your admission together with the further claim made by the Proclaimers book means that God used a false message to fulfill "speeding it up in its own time."

Since I have established relevance, will you answer the question?

The passage in John is a particularly good example.

Not really, because the idea was not the idea you dreamt it was. It did pertain only to John and there was no terminus of "until" involved, whatsoever. The common belief is offered by John only as a passing curiosity. The belief was spread among the brothers, not heavily propagandized to the known world at that time as something in which to put faith and hope. There really is very little comparison between the two.

But I must say I admire your tireless efforts on behalf of a religion that you infer you view as no better or worse than any other.

scholar

Auld Soul

Post 5836

I have not read this lecture nor do I have a copy of it. I do intend to purchase a copy of it soon so until I have examined critically the material it would be unwise of me to make further comment. If you have a copy would you email the document so that I can respond to your inquiry.

scholar JW

TheListener

I guess I just don't get it.

Yes, the first century christians got things wrong.

No, the first century christians did not disfellowship someone for not agreeing with something they got wrong.

Am I right in that understanding??

I can think of a couple things that some individuals in the first century got wrong:

-circumcision

-eating idol meat

-john's death

Jehovah's Witnesses get things wrong.

Jehovah's Witnesses do disfellowship someone who doesn't agree with current teaching.

How is that similar to the first century?

If the WTS writes that the end is coming in 1925; then that's it - the end is coming in 1925. When it doesn't come in 1925 new information will be presented to show why and a new date if available will be provided. All will adhere to the current information under pain of everlasting cutting off.

That makes them odious not dubious

Especially when the organization directs that your immediate relatives cut off association with you.

All current JWs: What is this?

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