How dare you challenge Judge Rutherford! Don't you realize he was inspired by Holy Spirits? (80 proof/40% alcohol by volume) JK
All current JWs: What is this?
by AuldSoul 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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slimboyfat
AuldSoul,
Your obfuscation in this instance is pathetic even by your standards. I will not waste much time on this. You say:
I missed the part in the Bible where it said they thought the end would come in John's lifetime.
The verses plainly say for anyone who is interested:
John 21:20-23 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?" Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?" (NIV)
If you want to go against plain sense and the tide of commentary on these verses the burden lies with you. I'm not playing your stupid games.
The Proclaimers book section referenced claims that this tripling of adherents was in fulfillment of God "speeding it up in its own time." Since you admitted the message was false, putting your admission together with the further claim made by the Proclaimers book means that God used a false message to fulfill "speeding it up in its own time."
Nah, it means you are avoiding the issue you raised at the start about whether the Witnesses are guilty of "false prophecy". I have explained my own views above, that render extrapolations about the agency of God in this or that religious faction meaningless to me. So unsuprisingly I have nothing to say about that.
But now we get onto your baseless assumptions:
It did pertain only to John and there was no terminus of "until" involved, whatsoever.
What like "until I return", that sort of thing? Good gracious did you even open your Bible up for this one?
The common belief is offered by John only as a passing curiosity.
How do you know? The fact is that it is one of the very last things included in the book of John, just two verses before the complaint that they/he had to be highly selective in what was included ("25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."). Some scholars such as David Trobisch view these closing verses as vital, not only to an understanding of the book of John, but in understanding the final redaction of the New Testament as a whole.
The belief was spread among the brothers, not heavily propagandized to the known world at that time as something in which to put faith and hope.
Leaving the pejorative aside, where does it say the commonly held belief was not proclaimed to others? It would be a rather odd situation where a group of people expected Jesus' return in a short period of time and failed to mention it. I am not saying the text tells us they included it in their ministry. I am saying you are 'going beyond what it written' by claiming this possibility is somehow excluded by the text.
There really is very little comparison between the two.
The early Christian belief that the end would come in John's lifetime makes for an interesting parallel with JWs recently abandoned belief that the generation of 1914 would see the end of the system of things.
But I must say I admire your tireless efforts on behalf of a religion that you infer you view as no better or worse than any other.
Yeah, so what? It really annoys you that someone who doesn't believe what JWs believe still thinks we should be fair about it doesn't it?
Slim
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johnny cip
Slimboy fat; you lost this arguement 2 days ago. your just using wt arguementation on jn 21;20-23 jesus never said john would be ALIVE IN THE FLESH BEFORE HE RETURNED. Has nothing to do with 1925. and thE apostles never went around preaching this for years after JESUS died on the cross. it was only a QUESTION ASKED BY THE APOSTLES. AND jesus set them straight right then and there." it's none of your business". THIS IS A CHEAP WT TRICK. I'VE HEARD IT 1000'S OF TIMES. there is no prophecy in jn : 21; 20-23 ONLY JESUS SETTING THE APOSTLES STRAIGHT. i can't believe you can't see this. now let's talk about john's soul/spritual body. when did it go into heaven 1874, 1878, 1881, 1905,1912,1914, 1915, 1918/1919, 1921, 1932 1935 etc. you think JOHN WILL BE hanging out IN HEAVEN with RUSSELL, NELSON BARBOUR, JUDGE RUTHERFRAUD, STORRS, WILLIAM MILLER. FRED FRANZ AND ALL THOSE OTHER FALSE PROPHETS OF THE SECOND ADVENTISTS? don't make me LAUGH. I can't type for crap.. ,but you wouldn't last 15 minutes with me in person. those are just the facts. i would drag you so far into the QUICKSAND OF "MILLIONS NOW LIVING WILL NEVER DIE AND THE 1919/1922 CONVENTIONS AT CEDAR POINT OHIO. REV. CLIMAX BOOK you would be begging me to pull out of the QUICK SAND and i wouldn't even open one book or bible. i feel sorry for you. john
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TheListener
Is somebody saying the WT isn't a false prophet?
phfaaaaaaaa that's crap.
I know I'm no expert. I'm just a simpleton.
But, if someone in a position of trust (that's the WTS to a believer) says that God says such and such will happen on such and such a date - they are a prophet. plain and simple.
To say they just get over zealous is would be ok if:
-they didn't claim spirit direction on their organization
-they didn't claim that the hand of Jesus directs the governing body (WT April 1 or 15? , 2007) - I'm pretty sure it says 'hand of Jesus' - see a simpleton; an intelligent person would run around the house and find the article before making the post. perhasp i'll find it later and follow up with the exact reference.
-they didn't say the dates they put forward are not from man but from God (again, I'll have to run around to get my references out)
I know not everyone agrees. That must be true because there are over 6 million JWs and they certainly wouldn't agree (right?)
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johnny cip
it's always the same thing with anyone trying to say the wts was never a false prophet, ever a prophet to begin with, just make mistakes in the name of JEHOVAH ETC ,ETC. ETC... heard all the TWISTED WT LIES 1000'S OF times. on paragraph they are prophets, the only one to speak for god. then 2 pages later, they are only mortal men that make mistakes. rolf. in time any jw or x jw that tries to defend the wt lies about wt prophecy. will just melt away . and look for a new subject , theY can WIGGLE OUT OF. with out LOSING FACE. JOHN
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SnakesInTheTower
The New Light is flashing on and off so fast one would think it is Morse code.....wait...wait....I am receiving a message from the Governing Body now:
.-- . / .- .-. . / ..-. ..- .-.. .-.. / --- ..-. / -.-. .-. .- .--. .-.-.-
http://morsecode.scphillips.com/jtranslator.html Copy the above for a translation
Just cant wait for more of the "Food at the Proper time" to spew forth from its spigot.
Snakes ()