Beware Deceivers

by Doug Mason 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Since I employ literal interpretation, I consider that Jesus’ words were specifically addressed to his immediate listeners.

    Doug,

    This would be fine except for the fact that your theme was Beware of Deceivers. You gave an interpretation just like others would in their own way. It would not be taken as truth or a basis for judging others except for the fact that your theme suggested that it be used to judge other interpretations as deceptive. So the questions asked were intended to get to the truth. Was your literal interpretation as you call it truthful or deceptive and could we identify deceivers because of it? It does not matter that you like to apply texts literally. I also like to look at them as literal as much as possible. Such interpretation however can result in deception as it does in the case of the rich man and Lazarus. All texts are not literal. And some texts that look symbolic can be literal. So how do we determine deception so we can be aware of it? Ask questions which is what I did. Consider other possibilities. Eliminate what cannot be proven such as 70CE no matter how much it is insisted upon by others. Bring in all the hidden facts such the resurrection and Daniel which also apply in this case. Such thinking is not difficult when we apply ourselves to such a task. There is nothing more that needs to be done here. Anyone interested can make their own judgments when they consider the material as we have here. It will be for them and not us to decide who the deceiver is that they should beware of.

    Joseph

  • AWAKE&WATCHING
    AWAKE&WATCHING

    Marking for later.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Joseph,

    You wrote: “the parousia did not take place then (70 CE). Why? Was the prophecy flawed?”

    The word “parousia” appears (only in Matthew) in the disciples’ question. This does not make it a prophecy. During Christ’s ministry, the disciples asked several questions that displayed their ignorance or misunderstandings. To them, the parousia was exactly as they had observed it many times during their lives – the momentous visit of a dignitary.

    When the heavenly glory surrounded Christ at the time of his ascension, that glory caused the disciples to once more relate to the setting up of Jesus as king of Israel.
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    In their question, the disciples related the destruction of the Temple with the “End”. I understand that they mean the end of the Jewish age. What other understanding could they have had? Remember, there was no Christian faith separate from Judaism at that time or for a long time after.

    In hindsight, we might say that the end of the Jewish Age came when Jesus started his ministry, when the temple veil was torn, when the holy spirit descended, when Paul started preaching to the Gentiles, or some other event. But these were not in the disciples’ minds when they posed the question about the temple.
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    When you write: “the answer was not intended for them”, to me this is Pesher interpretation.

    I believe that the disciples asked Jesus a question and he gave his answer to them. That is what the primitive church would have understood.

    It is my understanding that the most Jewish of NT writers – Matthew, Paul and Peter (at least) – did not employ Pesher interpretation. It is more than enlightening to compare the WTS with the Pesher characteristics of the eschatological Qumram society.
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    You wrote: “a presence and a sign are part of this prophecy.”

    Jesus actually warned AGAINST any sign (wars, earthquakes, etc.) and prophesied that these deceivers would try to make use of “signs”. Only an evil generation needs a sign, and the times are solely in God’s hand.
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    You cited: “Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” in the context of the end of the Jewish Age.

    As I showed, the total context of that verse is that righteousness comes through faith alone, not by any action on my part. The verse says no more and no less, and is not related to the timing of the end of the Jewish system.

    As Romans 4 shows (in the direct context of Romans 3:20-31), “righteousness by faith” is taught in the Law (Hebrew Scriptures), with Paul citing from the Torah and from the Writings of the Law in support of that assertion.
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    If you are correct that: “their hope was real this much was true and this earth would be the place for this Kingdom” then they did not understand what Christ meant by “the Kingdom”. It is something that the WTS does not understand either.
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    I presented those points from “The Watchtower”, September 15, 1964 pp. 575-576, Questions From Readers, to show that the WTS has no reason for saying that Jesus’ answer demanded that the “parousia” be invisible. That is all I intended.

    Doug

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    You wrote: "the parousia did not take place then (70 CE). Why? Was the prophecy flawed?"

    The word "parousia" appears (only in Matthew) in the disciples’ question. This does not make it a prophecy. During Christ’s ministry, the disciples asked several questions that displayed their ignorance or misunderstandings. To them, the parousia was exactly as they had observed it many times during their lives – the momentous visit of a dignitary.

    Doug,

    Sure it was a prophecy, but a prophecy with a history as discussed earlier. They all detailed His literal return here to earth just as Daniel did which did not happen in 70CE. All the accounts discussed such a parousia but by another word erchomai during this generation if you noticed? It was not necessary to use the word parousia, consistently as if it was critical to this discussion in some way. The WT makes its use almost magical, but it’s use is simple and ordinary not primary as they harp. So Matthew used it which was fine but a literal return (as foretold by the men in white robes) was prophesied in all the accounts regardless of its omission. Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. .But they all say .. .30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other [ressurection]. . . .34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. . . 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

    Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. . . 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Some add more detail than others and we can add them up but the literal disciples spoken to would be dead when this visible Jerusalem mentioned in this generation took place. But did this matter? No! The prophecy was written for the Faith as an entity, living or dead, makes no difference. Such a Faith such a YOU or YE KNOW existed through time as if alive awaiting this event, this generation we still look forward to and many still try to identify. How then does anyone get 70CE out of any of this and why do they insist upon it? Such a doctrine destroys the prophecy and its intended purpose. How is it that they know this day and hour so well that we still wait for? The same day and hour regarding such temples, Jerusalem, holy place that was Israel, the Kingdom’s center of worship repeated in Acts chapter 1?

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    Doug said: You cited: "Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" in the context of the end of the Jewish Age.

    And Doug also said: As I showed, the total context of that verse is that righteousness comes through faith alone, not by any action on my part. The verse says no more and no less, and is not related to the timing of the end of the Jewish system.

    My part, your part, the Jewish Christians in Rome still keeping the Law to which Paul wrote. Where is the real context? Why did Paul have to say this to them? Well, there was a war going on in the Faith that nearly cost Paul his life and James was on the wrong side as were such Romans. It was about keeping this Law and why it no longer applied that Paul had to write such things in nearly all his letters and to appoint Elders to stop it. So law or Law, just say the word to them and it had only one meaning. Apply it now and it does not to us the way it did then. And the answer is the same, sure but so what? Yes it applies to the end of the Jewish age. Not that this is a big deal now but it most certainly was then. And it was the reason why the book of Hebrews had to be written to stop it. A major problem of the time missed by most and taken so lightly today or brushed aside as not in context. As I said before, let the readers decide where the deception is to be found and reason the matter out for themselves.

    Joseph

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    An interesting in depth discussion I will look into it more when I have time. My viewpoint is that the gospel writers mixed up the end of the Jewish system (polity) with that of the end of the gentiles and what comes out is tangled and vague. Some parts of that prophecy were obviously fulfilled in 70AD and some will be fulfilled in the future end of gentile authority. BTW the Greek word "parousia" literally means presence and not coming.

    Massada: Did any Christian Jews participate in that battle? I doubt it since they were at violent odds with the non Christian Jews. The only reason they didn't get hammered to the ground is because unlike gentile Christians they kept up fully observing the Mosaic law.

    As for modern literal Israel figuring in the fulfillment of prophecies that can't be the case since they were rejected by God even if temporarily and they have been constantly a fierce anti Christ power since day one.

    To this day along with the Moslems and though hostile between themselves, they both passionately desire to see the end of Christianity and Christian culture. Wherever Islamic and Judaic influences assert themselves they instantly seek to suppress and dismantle Christianity. Be it the Arab, the Turk, the JW or the Jew.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    An interesting in depth discussion I will look into it more when I have time. My viewpoint is that the gospel writers mixed up the end of the Jewish system (polity) with that of the end of the gentiles and what comes out is tangled and vague. Some parts of that prophecy were obviously fulfilled in 70AD and some will be fulfilled in the future end of gentile authority. BTW the Greek word "parousia" literally means presence and not coming.

    Greendawn,

    They did not know the time, that much is true we know, but they were not confused about the Gentiles and their existence which they brought into the faith in large numbers. Such Gentile times as they are called have not yet ended as some teach and they knew that as well. They began with sin, since the beginning of creation which they made known but few notice. We can see them, they exist now, so why do so many deny this reality? The reason why 70CE does not apply but was simply another report of a war as stated in the history which should not alarm us for the end is not yet was discussed in detail. It is little things like this that confuse the texts for many. The generation of 70CE did not see "this generation" and was far from the end being discussed.

    Greendawn said: Massada: Did any Christian Jews participate in that battle? I doubt it since they were at violent odds with the non Christian Jews. The only reason they didn't get hammered to the ground is because unlike gentile Christians they kept up fully observing the Mosaic law.

    On the contrary they worshiped in the temple and synagogues just like the rest and would have fit in well with such rebels. After all they tried to kill Paul and it took the Roman army to save him. But the prophecy was modified to prevent such a decision by them and it became less likely for them to have participated, a remarkable fact visible in the texts. Luke was not concerned with it so he could give the more literal account as his readers would not be effected. But at least they were putting things together properly so they had information not privy to us but revealed when the texts were finally penned prior to 70CE.

    Greendawn said: As for modern literal Israel figuring in the fulfillment of prophecies that can't be the case since they were rejected by God even if temporarily and they have been constantly a fierce anti Christ power since day one.

    That is correct as they no longer provide the "constant feature" that will be found in danger during this generation. So we come together on this point.

    Joseph

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