Lefty/YK & Any Other JW's - ???

by pettygrudger 24 Replies latest jw friends

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  pettygrudger

  I'm extremely confused by the answers in some of your posts. You keep refering to "new light" and have also explained why the WTBTS has made errors along the way, even though it has caused the "stumbling" of thousands. Your logic makes sense except for 1 questions that continues to go through my mind.

  Although all of God's messengers, apostles, disciples, etc. etc. made "human" error in judgements - they were just that - human error, to which these individuals had to answer to God. But I remember no time in the bible that their human errors caused the "stumbling" of such masses of people. Nor do I recall a time in the bible where engraved in stone doctrine was changed with "new light" and modified accordingly then retaught. I would assume there would be examples of such circumstances if this is the way God's earthly presence was to manifest itself. I can understand your statements regarding "smooth words of apostasy", but this "new light" stuff really is perplexing. There is no basis for this in the scripture except "making the light brighter". I had always been told that verse meant more & more would become knowlegeable about the "true organization". 16 years later, I hear its used to change doctrine & truth. Where is the precadent for this in the bible?
  Thanks.
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  Lefty

  Pettygrudger,

  I would suggest that you get used to the fact that there is not another organization on earth like that which the WTS oversees, and it's for no other reason than that the WTS is dedicated to do the Creator's will, the best it can, to the best of its abilities. It's an organization that has had to make many changes, and will undoubtedly have to make more changes yet as they are seen to be needed.

  As opposed to the 1st century congregation, modern-day Christians are not privileged with the presence of Jesus' apostles, so as to be able to appeal to them and let them settle any problems that come up. In other words, things are different now. For that reason one shouldn’t be surprised that there is not a precedent to be found in the Scriptures for some of the things that now happen amongst true Christians. And so it is, that, today, those taking the lead in the Christian Congregation are privileged in another way … they have the opportunity to demonstrate to God their determination to do his will even WITHOUT the advantages that the early Christians enjoyed. Considering the times and circumstances, those who have been willing to take the lead amongst Jehovah’s Witnesses have surely made their Creator happy.

  Yes, there have indeed been adjustments … and readjustments of some of THOSE adjustments for that matter. Seems silly to some, but not to those who are just as determined as the writers of the publications of the WTS. As to whether or not the peoples of Sodom and Gomorrah will come back in the resurrection, I personally KNOW that they will. But what if the WTS has published otherwise? Well, I agree, that can create problems. Because how can a person enthusiastically share literature with people out in the field service which the publisher himself doesn’t endorse?

  What to do? Why not just nothing at all, if it means that you will stand the chance of disturbing the peace and unity of the Congregation. Afterall, what right would any person have to take it upon himself to, in effect, go making the Congregation (the fruits of the preaching work of the WTS) his OWN territory so as to preach to them certain things that he might even only THINK (rather than actually know) is wrong with the WTS’s teachings. Every person associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses has the right to say that they are unable to agree with a certain thought as presented in the WTS’s publications. You can’t be disfellowshipped for making that known to the proper ones, and leaving it at that. However, if such a person prefers to broadcast his ideas amongst the other members so as to place the peace and unity of the Congregation at risk, that one shouldn’t be surprised if his attempts at doing so gets arrested and he finds himself in a heap of trouble. And rightly so, because as I’ve already noted, the Congregation came about as a result of the dedicated efforts of the WTS and those who faithfully work under it’s direction.

  You seem to me to be overly concerned with the fact that what we claim to be “God’s Organization” has had to make adjustments in the way it views matters. You seem to be of the mind that if the WTS truly represented God’s Organization then there shouldn’t ever arise any need to review its doctrinal structure and make any adjustments, if deemed necessary. Well, I would suggest that you read the following page from a certain brother’s personal web site. The account at Matthew 13:51-52 mentioned there should be of interest to you. It demonstrates the justification for doctrinal CHANGE or adjustments (something that you seem to be particularly “confused” about, as you asked “Where is the precedent for this in the Bible.”). That URL is: http://4heavens.homestead.com/9.html

  For now I will leave you with that to look at, and perhaps later I will have more time than I do at the present.-lefty.
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  comment

  I am disturbed that Jehovah's Witnesses refer to themselves as having and being in "the truth," and then proceed to place greater value on "unity" than on truth.

  "Hey, we may be all be wrong, but we're all wrong TOGETHER!"

  Meanwhile, when other churches make "adjustments" (what a nice euphemism!), it's an indication that they are part of false religion. And should members of those churches just peacefully allow their churches to go on teaching their doctrines, or should they get out in order to avoid sharing their plagues etc., according to the Society?

  It's all pretty embarrassing when you think about it.

  comment
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  ISP

  I am not sure that any of the apologetics that post on the board would be considered representative of the JWs or WTS. They believe in their own 'brand' of JW'ism and would more than likely be booted by the WTS. The WTS is one of those organisations that I would call 'messenger wannabees'. What makes anyone think that God approves/supports them in any way? Being a 'wannabee' is never enough-the world is full of them. The people at the top know they do not have any active direction by God.(The R+F are told differently) They stumble from one mistake to another, the UN fiasco being a recent example. There should of course be no need for such horrible errors if God/Jesus was with them...particularly as Jesus gives them the 'food at the proper time' to dispense, having appointed the WTS the FDS in 1919....and is ruling in Heaven since 1914....and the elders are in his 'right hand'. The history of the WTS since 1919 is there for all to see! It is not pretty! It is one littered with mistakes, false predictions, changes in doctrine and you would expect this to continue. By their 'fruits' you would recognise them!

  ISP
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  Patriot

  Lefty said: "I would suggest that you get used to the fact that there is not another organization on earth like that which the WTS oversees, ."

  True, the Jw org. is a cold and ruthless one which believe that the only hope for humanity is the destruction of 6 billion people.

  Lefty says that today the folks at the WT are not blessed with the presence of Christ or of the apostles. Also true.

  But there is something that you need to explain: How did the early christians even after the apostles death understand the Bible clearly but today the WT says you can't do it unless you have a WT or awake to do so?

  What, were the early christians wrong? Did they not understand the Bible? So they were lost without the WTBTS?

  Would'nt it be logical to think that the closer we were to Jesus's time the clearer the message would have been, than to think that now after 2 thousand years we can understand what he actually meant only if we study with the WTBTS?

  The JW's are so far from the meaning of the actual message that by trying to be maticulous in their interpretations, they actually blunder more than they see.

  They have just as many traditions as the Jewish community but yet judge them to destruction.

  Jw's HAVE to have 3 conventions a year. If you don't go, then your spiritually weak. You HAVE to go to 5 meetings a week.
  You HAVE to go out on service and preach the WTBTS message (not the early christians message which is clearly in the Bible).
  You HAVE to shave your beard, dress a certain way, talk a certain way, have a job that cries out "Im a humble JW!", can't wear a dress over your knees, wear to much make-up( the amount varies from Congo. to congo.), no parties past 11:30, can't wear a mixed suit to give a public talk, etc,etc,etc....

  Of course you can't question any belief which is "unique" to JW or you will get ousted.

  And there are many, many more stupid rules and regulations. Bethelites have a whole book of rules and regs.

  Point is Lefty that your dear org. is made up of nothing more than rules that have nothing to do with Bible principles and never will.
  Thats he kind of org that you belong to and are yoked down to. Us we followed Jesus advice and got ourselves unyoked, never to be yoked down again.

  Damn I feel good!

  Mav.-
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  Lefty

  Comment,

  I am disturbed that Jehovah's Witnesses refer to themselves as having and being in "the truth," and then proceed to place greater value on "unity" than on truth.

  You have a lot of fun on this forum, don't you comment. Are you sure that those distrubing sensations that you're having aren't merely the pangs of constipation? Seriously, you haven't any justification for making a statement such as you just did. The WTS IS concerned with the "truth", otherwise it would take the easy way out and salute the flag like most other churches do.

  Meanwhile, when other churches make "adjustments" (what a nice euphemism!), it's an indication that they are part of false religion.

  Do YOU even know what you are talking about? Can you site an example to prove it?

  And should members of those churches just peacefully allow their churches to go on teaching their doctrines, or should they get out in order to avoid sharing their plagues etc., according to the Society?

  LOL! Are you really prepared to deal with the can of worms that you're opening up? No, seriously, I don't think that most of those "members" that you speak of really care, one way or the other. As long as the Preacher keeps comforting his flock with the belief that they're safe and going home to Heaven, they could care less in most cases. Also, the Preacher has to be a patriot too. If he's not, soooooo long buddy.-lefty.
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  pettygrudger

  For me Lefty, this point goes to the "heart" of these discussions. I disagree that there aren't ANY groups like the WTBTS - in fact they are not unique in any single aspect. And in the matter of showing "love", they are far behind many different religious sects. I was born & raised a JW.....I knew no other religion. When I was DF'd, there were several extenuating circumstances in my situation, that both me, my mother and siblings testified to. I was repentant for any "sins" I may have committed, and in light of my judicial proceedings, several things came to "light" as they pertained to me. Was there any "love" or mercy shown? No. I was df'd because they said I was like a "cancer" (although I wasn't doing anything publically) with my lies and deceit - even though I hadn't said anything to anyone. I wasn't lying - I was telling the truth, but it was more truth than they could handle as far as it pertained to other persons w/in their org. holding positions. So I was DF'd, with already several mental/emotional problems & left to the wolves. I don't know exactly how I survived that period of time, I was still a child in so many ways. And frightened, but mostly so angry w/myself for not being "good enough". I tried to regain favor for 2 months, but it was psychologically more than I could bear. I don't blame them for the things that happened to me, but I do blame them for leaving me out to hang when it was SO obvious I needed help - serious help spiritually. My faith had been shaken to its core many years previous to my df'ing, but I had struggled along and tried my very best. No elder/wife - anyone "shepherded" me - we were white trash & no one paid us much bother. In the end, the only time in the 4 years I had conversations w/the elders was when they df'd me. I hold grudges - hence my name. I know its wrong. But what they did left such a scar, and so many emotional problems unresolved, it took over a decade to figure out how to completely cope. And sometimes, I'm not there yet.

  My point to the above is that for me, and for many more like me who have had much more tragic circumstances/events that shook their faith & belief system to its very core, and then were left alone to rebuild w/no help whatsoever, how is it that the WTBTS is "immune" from facing their mistakes, acknowledging them and perhaps punishing those involved? Why are they immune from making mistakes, while individuals w/situations much more personal & devestating are left to be df'd, shunned, die for their beliefs, lose loved ones, have their families torn apart & suffer such real consequences and the WTBTS can just call things "new light"? Yet, unless the persons "popular", no mercy has ever been shown to the bros/sis' within their own congregations?
• 

  ashitaka

  I think....that You Know just got an image boost from none of his own doing.

  ashi
• 

  JT

  Lefty

  I would like to welcome you to this site. I found your comments to be very interesting . From your post I gather that you are currently one of JW.

  I afraid that the comments you have made below are not in keeping with the CURRENT NEW LIGHT- I suggest that you read your Aug 1-2001 WT for the current light on the issue of "Privately Disagreeing with the WT"

  for they show that to disagree privatlely even is a sign that you Left are not in harmony with God's Visible org- and I'm sure you would not want to be out of Harmony with the ORG

  So This link below and REPOST should provide you with a start

  But welcome to the site

  James

  ########################
  Lefty States

  "As to whether or not the peoples of Sodom and Gomorrah will come back in the resurrection, I personally KNOW that they will"

  and

  "Every person associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses has the right to say that they are unable to agree with a certain thought as presented in the WTS’s publications"

  _________________________________

  The article below shows that ACCORDING TO THE MOST RECENT NEW LIGHT

  YOU DON’T HAVE THAT RIGHT
  Sorry to break the bad news to you-

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=11974&site=3#146419

  Today's Watchtower lesson instructs Witnesses not to think for themselves when it comes to Bible understanding:
  Augest 1, 2001, p. 14, par. 8:
  First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rater, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided "at the proper time" -- through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions -- we can be sure that we maintain "oneness" with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge. -- Matthew 24:45.
• 

  JT

  Lefty

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=11974&site=3#146419

  Today's Watchtower lesson instructs Witnesses not to think for themselves when it comes to Bible understanding:
  Augest 1, 2001, p. 14, par. 8:
  First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rater, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided "at the proper time" -- through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions -- we can be sure that we maintain "oneness" with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge. -- Matthew 24:45.